Moonlightaholics

An interesting discussion started off in the Coffee House darkfic thread but it seemed to warrant its own thread.

So, given some speculation that part of the season 2 storyline would involve Josef betraying Mick, what do you think that might have meant? What form of betrayal? How would Mick react and would they end up in a fight to the death?

Red

Hmmmm- COULD he? If the situation were right and he thought it was the best thing for Mick, possibly. To protect the secret, protect Mick or to keep Mick/Beth from being split up? I can see it happening under any of these, but only under serious duress. Under normal circumstances... well, white lies maybe. Not a full blown betrayal.

Interesting Jen, I don't necessarily think that Josef would have to think something was in Mick's best interests. He's always struck me as being motivated more by his own, or the tribe's best interests. And as head of the L.A. branch of Vamps Inc., I think that a betrayal of Mick via tribe over human interests would be plausible for me.

Oh I can see Josef betraying Mick... at least in Mick's eyes... sometimes betrayal is in the eyes of the beholder. Since Josef and Mick had different perspectives of morality sometimes, I can so see Josef doing the practical thing and Mick seeing it as a morally wrong, betrayal, whatever.

And I have no clue what the writers had in mind, but it could be something Josef had already done, that comes to light, that he never confessed to Mick... for practical purposes only... and that makes Mick feel betrayed, or lied to...

I think if Josef DID do something, and Mick SAW it as betrayal, it would HAVE to revolve around either Beth, Cora, or the Cure... those are the keys to Mick's own heart. I think anything else Josef did, like start WWIII for speculative profit, Mick would get over...

If you keep this in the context of the series having a second season, some kind of betrayal or tension among characters is typically served up in a series' second season for a romantic drama such as 'Moonlight'. For the series to then continue, there is resolution late in that season, with the appropriate cliffhanger, then on to the third season.

In that context, perhaps actual betrayal from which there is no recovery would have been difficult to keep the storyline going. Conflict I could see occurring, in part over whether to turn Beth or not, or if there were some threat from the human community. Which side would Beth take? Which side would Mick take?

I took a stab at this in my second multi-chapter 'Secrets', with Josef manipulating both Mick and Beth, trying to influence them on the issue of turning. Let's just say that both Mick and Beth took exception to the manipulation, causing a strain in the boys friendship. But the tension also allowed for the characters to develop, with Josef having greater respect for Mick, and Mick realizing he will ultimately have to choose where he stands with Beth

Thanks, Red!

This topic got started when Eris mentioned that the writers were setting up for a Josef/Mick betrayal in season two. Then Emerald added that JD said in an interview during the mid-first season that there was the possibility of major betrayal with Josef and MIck, the two of them becoming sworn enemies.
I wondered if it could be like what they did in the original pilot script. At the end it was revealed that Josef was involved with Coraline all the long.

Honestly, I can more easily see them contemplating this early in the first season but abandoning the idea. At first Josef just had something about him that I didn't trust. I suspected he might be up to something. But then they started writing him a bit softer (Sleeping Beauty) and I fell in love with him, and now I find it very hard to believe he'd really hurt Mick.

Just a few random thoughts:

Mick does NOT want to have Josef Kostan for an enemy. Josef is the most powerful vamp in L.A., Mick wouldn't stand a chance. He'd have to leave town.

As for something less extreme, my Josef muse would say, "what's a little betrayal between friends?" I have no doubt he knows things, has secrets from Mick, and even lies to Mick. He has his reasons, some of them might involve the security of the vamp community. As close as they are, Mick is just a kid in vamp terms, there's probably a lot he wouldn't understand. Things that Josef really doesn't see as betrayal but Mick would.

hmmm.... harking back to another discussion on the board, I suspect that a 'betrayal' could be something to do with the cure. I'm sure Josef knew about it, and if Mick found out he did all the while he was denying its existence, I think that would be strong enough reason to fall out with Josef, especially when something awful has happened to Coraline as a result. Mick might see this as having caused harm to Coraline indirectly.

I'll build on something both Cat and Luxe have said. Josef is a very powerful vamp, but he is also a very lonely one. Mick has become a close friend, one that he doesn't want to lose. So both Beth and the cure could drive a wedge in between them.

So if you're Josef, how do you keep Mick a vamp? Destroy the cure and / or turn Beth.

yes, darkstar, and I think Josef wouldn't hesitate to do either of those. I wonder though, if Mick threatened the tribe in some way, would Josef sacrifice him the way the Monaghans were sacrificed?

darkstarrising wrote:I took a stab at this in my second multi-chapter 'Secrets', with Josef manipulating both Mick and Beth, trying to influence them on the issue of turning. Let's just say that both Mick and Beth took exception to the manipulation, causing a strain in the boys friendship. But the tension also allowed for the characters to develop, with Josef having greater respect for Mick, and Mick realizing he will ultimately have to choose where he stands with Beth

Okay, so now we're going back to the coffee house topic. It's a fabulous series, I highly recommend everyone read it! ("Secrets" is the 2nd story after "Descent into Hell".)

As much as I hate to admit it, it makes sense. If they were going to go with the whole Legion storyline, Josef might end up in the difficult position of choosing between the safety of the vamp community or Beth. Betray the entire vamp population -- or betray Mick and Beth. Maybe... they would have resolved the issue later on by Mick finding out that Josef hadn't betrayed him at all, he just had to make it look like that...

Personally, I'd much rather it be something like turning Beth though. You mentioned something in your 2nd post -- perhaps Josef himself was given an ultimatim, either Beth is turned or she dies. Knowing (or thinking) that Mick would never do it, he does it himself. To Mick that would qualify.

Yes, I absolutely agree with that Cat. I think to Mick, Beth's humanity is precious to an almost irrational degree. I think he over identifies with 'human' Beth - he couldn't save his own humanity, but he can save hers. Any turning would unhinge him, I think.

Catmoon wrote:
Personally, I'd much rather it be something like turning Beth though. You mentioned something in your 2nd post -- perhaps Josef himself was given an ultimatim, either Beth is turned or she dies. Knowing (or thinking) that Mick would never do it, he does it himself. To Mick that would qualify.

That it would....If the turning was not agreed to by all, Mick would view Josef's turning Beth as the ultimate betrayal...not to mention that 'strong bond' between sire and fledgling could sway Beth's affections.

I agree with all of you. Josef would certainly do things that Mick would view as a betrayal, if it fit Josef's needs.
Josef already betrayed Mick in season 1, as I am sure he knew about the cure, whatever he said otherwise. He lied to Mick about how Lola got the money, and he lied to Mick when he kept his involvement with Foster's death a secret. In Sleeping Beauty he lied to Mick all the time by omission, not telling him he knew Whitley and why he was in danger.

I'm sure Josef wasn't fond of Coraline and the cure, but as he always has more motives than one I can see him manipulate things even by supposedly being in league with Coraline or her family. It made me queasy how hard he tried to convince Mick not to get in touch with Lance, I'm not convinced that it was just out of fear Mick might get hurt, it was because that could reveal secrets he didn't want revealed. I guess that Josef knew full well that Lance's family was in possession of a cure and that would be something that Mick would go for, if it was dangled in front of his nose. And see, Coraline dangled it, and he immediately took it, without even asking questions first.

I can see Josef betraying Mick to keep the community safe, as he also sacrificed his long-term friends the Monaghans when they endangered the community. Josef warned Mick all the time in the later episodes not to get so much exposition. I'm sure he would be conflicted, but he would force Mick to relocate if it were for the best of the community, Beth or no Beth.

francis wrote:I agree with all of you. Josef would certainly do things that Mick would view as a betrayal, if it fit Josef's needs.
Josef already betrayed Mick in season 1, as I am sure he knew about the cure, whatever he said otherwise. He lied to Mick about how Lola got the money, and he lied to Mick when he kept his involvement with Foster's death a secret. In Sleeping Beauty he lied to Mick all the time by omission, not telling him he knew Whitley and why he was in danger.

I'm sure Josef wasn't fond of Coraline and the cure, but as he always has more motives than one I can see him manipulate things even by supposedly being in league with Coraline or her family. It made me queasy how hard he tried to convince Mick not to get in touch with Lance, I'm not convinced that it was just out of fear Mick might get hurt, it was because that could reveal secrets he didn't want revealed. I guess that Josef knew full well that Lance's family was in possession of a cure and that would be something that Mick would go for, if it was dangled in front of his nose. And see, Coraline dangled it, and he immediately took it, without even asking questions first.

I can see Josef betraying Mick to keep the community safe, as he also sacrificed his long-term friends the Monaghans when they endangered the community. Josef warned Mick all the time in the later episodes not to get so much exposition. I'm sure he would be conflicted, but he would force Mick to relocate if it were for the best of the community, Beth or no Beth.

francis,

these are all good points....too often the lies smoothly fell from Josef's lips, perhaps to protect his own interests or to protect those of the community.....Josef's whole reaction to Coraline, Lance and the cure just reeked of withholding information.. Mick goes to Josef while he's getting a massage, telling him he needs to find Coraline...next thing we see is Mick is at the warehouse where Coraline is working on the cure. Did Josef tell him where to find her? If so, how did he know? Or did Mick track her down on his own.

So many questions, so many possibilities...

wpgrace wrote:Oh I can see Josef betraying Mick... at least in Mick's eyes... sometimes betrayal is in the eyes of the beholder. Since Josef and Mick had different perspectives of morality sometimes, I can so see Josef doing the practical thing and Mick seeing it as a morally wrong, betrayal, whatever.

And I have no clue what the writers had in mind, but it could be something Josef had already done, that comes to light, that he never confessed to Mick... for practical purposes only... and that makes Mick feel betrayed, or lied to...

I think if Josef DID do something, and Mick SAW it as betrayal, it would HAVE to revolve around either Beth, Cora, or the Cure... those are the keys to Mick's own heart. I think anything else Josef did, like start WWIII for speculative profit, Mick would get over...

I totally agree Grace. In my personal opinion if Mick found out about the photographer he would consider that a betrayal instead of protection. Because even though Beth asked for the hit, by Josef confirming to her he was accepting the job as hit man he made Beth a murderer. To Mick's mind Josef would have destroyed part of Beth's innocence aka humanity. Even though this was 100% Beth his mind wouldn't wrap around that.