Moonlightaholics

Well, TVGuide is definitely on the top of my list for fave publications lately!
When you get a notice like that from such a well respected media outlet--that is high praise indeed.

I finally got a response back from one of my friend at Quantico. He's a honest to Bob profiler and watched the episode for me. Well, actually I begged him to watch it and let me know what he thought. I also asked him to profile Vincent. So pasted below (from an e-mail he sent me) is the profile. What's not mentioned below, but was dicussed between additional e-mails, was Vicent's OCD. My friend said that he didn't include Vincent's OCD in the mock profile because his OCD didn't make him a serial killer, but rather was a contributing factor to his signature. In other words, Vicent's OCD would be no different than a alcoholic serial killer, or a drug addict serial killer, or a blind serial killer. It would be part of his signature, and the kills would reflect whatever prediliction the killer had in his makeup. I know I'm screwing this up, but I hope I got his point across.

So, here goes. I left in a few personal comments to me cuz I thought they were kind of funny and would give you guys a hint just how much the real BAU, or BAP as its referred to now, really feel about Criminal Minds.

The Criminal Minds BAU Team were off profile on Vincent. Vincent was not a sexual psychopath. He derived no sexual gratification from the murders. Rather, the killing of these murders fulfilled a need, a fantasy. Given the limited information provided during the episode, it would be extremely difficult to provide and exact profile. Specific information relative to Vicent’s upbringing before and after the murder of his mother would be crucial to profiling accurately.

However, since I owe you one, several actually, I’ll pretend that Vincent is “real” and I’ve been asked to profile a serial killer, sight unseen, with limited information available. Some things we can “fill in the blanks” based on years of study at profiling certain types of serial killers. So here goes…and for the record, I still hate Criminal Minds and you owe me lunch for suffering through yet another over-the-top attempt at profiling by the never wrong, always get their man BAU Team. But I must say I’m still envious that they have a jet.

So, how would I profile Vincent? Vincent is a serial killer, no doubt about that. He's probably not insane; in fact, he sounds like an anti-social personality, a sociopath, someone who knows right from wrong but doesn't care as he has no regard for authority, laws or ethical codes. Sociopathic serial killers almost always have traumatic experiences, like abuse, neglect or abandonment, in their backgrounds. Vincent’s mother died a gruesome death at the hands of Vincent’s father when Vincent was very young. My guess is that this loss translated into a sense of abandonment and lack of control, which he may have fantasized about reversing.

Its likely that every time Vincent killed, he was symbolically taking control of his mother's death and, perhaps, exacting revenge against her for having an affair(s) and/or for her leaving him. It's as if he was so angered by her death and his inability to prevent it that he wanted to kill her himself.

Even though all this speculation is based on decades of experience and research, it's still just speculation. The only way I could truly get into Vincent’s mind would be to interview him myself. And since Vincent is dead, not to mention a non-dimensional fictional character, that’s not likely to happen.

What would I ask him? I would obviously ask about his mother's death and his feelings toward women. I would probe what was going on in his mind before he killed his first victim. There’s usually a precipitating stressor -- an argument with someone, the loss of a job that leads to the first murder, something that triggered the killer's internalized anger.

I'd want to know when he first began thinking about killing these women. It might turn out that he'd started fantasizing about it as a teenager or even younger. Serial killers are intelligent and patient. Finding out that Vincent had a long-term plan wouldn't be much of a surprise.

I'd also question him about his feelings toward women in general. Attempt to determine exactly where the anger, resentment and hatred are directed. At the victim, or at his mother? Or even perhaps at himself?

Beyond that, I'd go where Vincent took me. His speech patterns would give me insight into his mental processes, and the directions in which he wanted to take the conversation would tell me a lot about what he did, or did not, want to discuss.

We might find out why he killed, though not necessarily why he chose those women.

Serial killers aren't motivated by the simple urges that drive other crimes. The forces that compel them to kill and kill again are much more complex and have to do with the need to control, dominate and manipulate others. They don't feel guilty. They don't understand compassion.

Seeing a pattern and being aware of at least part of what drove Vincent won’t provide any real answers for those close to his victims. None of them will ever be able to say they understand why Vincent killed their daughter, sister, friend or girlfriend. He didn't know any of the young women, save Alice. Each were simply a strangers who had the unfortunate luck to cross his path. Sadly, those who were close to Vincent’s victims will never have the answers they need. It’s impossible, as those answers don’t exist. Like most serial killers, Vincent’s kills had everything to do with him and his need to fulfill a fantasy, and nothing to do with the victims as individuals.

Now that I've wasted valuable Bureau time on this, I'll end by saying overall the episode was pretty good. But I still say that trying to profile a killer in one hour when it takes weeks, sometimes months, to get an accurate profile is an injustice to all the hard working men and women that do this job every day. Yes, its TV, but it should be responsible TV, especially when dealing with a science that is not always exact and is constantly evolving, just as the serial killers are always evolving and changing.

I'll be up next week for that lunch.

Absolutely fascinating, Susan. Thank you so much a) for using up a favour to get your friend to watch this, and b) for sharing.

(BTW, your friend sounds awesome )

Red

Susie, that is fascinating. And I wondered about that jet myself.

Yes, fascinating... thanks for getting us "more than our money's worth" from our government, SusieQ.

And I have to say, it was pretty chilling where he explained that there could be no reason whatsoever for why a serial killer picks certain women/men. Coming from a state that's been known to have its share of these psychos (California), it creeps me out a bit. Having grown up largely in big cities, I always felt my good street smarts would afford an extra "layer" of protection (if there's something 'off' about them, don't look 'em in the eye; cross the street when you feel something creepy; etc.). This just makes me feel like a sitting duck. So glad there's so many more good peeps out there on our planet!

Also, I'm wondering if it's just me (probably), but I almost get a feeling of pity from the overall tenor of your friend's note... because I noticed this when reading his note, it just made me curious about how these folks who do this profiling relate emotionally to their jobs and these people they're profiling. I say this only because I remember you saying before how you had a chance to go for a position that would have involved seeing bad things happen to kids and you turned it down because you didn't want that to be your daily existence. These profiling folks have to deal with a lot, I imagine, and I just wonder if, in addition to their understanding of the psychological traumas/backgrounds of these killers, they find it "healthier" for their own mental balance over the long term to be able to feel pity or feel sorry for these killers. Just curious how someone copes with experiencing this on a daily basis. I can't even remotely imagine being able to handle it.

Thanks again for sharing!

Thank you, Susie. And tell your friend I'll owe him/her a lunch if I ever get out that way! I have always been interested in "crawling" into the mind of a killer - I know, weird! I guess I read "In Cold Blood" at a very impressionable age (13).

It doesn't sound like your friend felt that Vincent was able to seek redemption, though.

amyvil wrote:Don't know how we missed this one but Alex got a Cheers over at TV Guide and they need comments! So let's go over there and comment!Amy V.

Thanks for the link, amyv
Great review and they got it right! CBS will be crazier than Vincent if they don't pick up TR
The TV guide reporters surely love Alex. I left my praising comment.

(my apologies to the mentalist fans but Alex is a much better actor than the cute Simon B)

I know that the BAP (Behavior Analysis Program) has grown by leaps and bounds from its early roots. They have clinical psychologists, sociologists, street agents, even mathmeticians and scientists on staff. And a profile is not done by just one, but many who bring a specific expertise to the table. And I don't think they necessarily commiserate or have pity for the killers, but rather a deeper understanding of them than the commoner. With understanding comes knowledge and acceptance, me thinks. The friend that was sweet enough to do this mock profile has been doing this job for many, many years. So he obviously has a far greater understanding for what makes these killers "tick". And he once told me that one single event in someone's life can shape the rest of their life...for the better...or for the worse. Some choices are made of free will, while others are made for us. Its how we adapt, or not, that will tell the tale. I can understand what he's saying, if just a bit. But I would not want to deal with such horror day in and day out. I don't have the constitution for it. It takes a very special person to do this job. No doubt about it.

Susan--please add my voice to the chorus of thanks to your friend. That was beyond fascinating--and your friend sounds incredibly cool--great sense of humor.

Off on a tangent--I noticed again while re-viewing CM last nite how VIncent appeared when he asked Stan if he killed the cat he ran over with his scooter (remember, Stan saying he ran over a cat?). At first I just assumed VIncent's demeanor was only due to the fact that he literally could not get the joke, then I wondered if there was a fear for him thinking that Stan killed a small animal--therefore worrying about him heading down the same path he (Vincent) did.

Maybe I am way off-base with this, but it just kind of struck a chord with me.

Fleur, I think you're on the right track and are right. Serial killers usually begin by killing or torturing small animals. They gradually work their way up to bigger prey...US! Since most feel no remorse or even emotion, they are fascinated with the killing of the animals and sometimes will disect them after the kill. Curious, but not shocked or sad about the death. Spooky, huh?

VAsusieQ18 wrote:Fleur, I think you're on the right track and are right. Serial killers usually begin by killing or torturing small animals. They gradually work their way up to bigger prey...US! Since most feel no remorse or even emotion, they are fascinated with the killing of the animals and sometimes will disect them after the kill. Curious, but not shocked or sad about the death. Spooky, huh?

Yes, very. I knew that they usually start with small prey, that is why that one scene stuck out in my head. Makes you wonder if that's how Vincent got his start.

Very interesting, vasussie. Your friend provided some concrete answers for us.
But if Vincent is a sociopath, how can one explain his emotional connection to that little boy?

Or maybe it was just another hole in the script.

DC, i think the writers took a bit of artistic license with Vicent. Sociopaths can't feel emotion, but they can mimic it very well. I'm not saying Vicent didn't care about that little boy, cuz its obvious that he did. Again, I think the writers wrote that into the script. In the real world, the sociopath can be married, have children and look and act like a normal person with all the "show" of emotions. But according to the real profilers, is all a front/act. They cannot feel. No remorse. No love. No true emotion. They just put on a good show of believability. Its hard for us to understand that, I guess, but its a proven fact. But I'm glad Alex was able to re-write fact and give Vicent a vulnerability, a capacity to care. It made for a better story, even if it coudn't happen in the real world.

Thanks, susie.
I was thinking along these lines but didn't dare post my non-expert thoughts after the professionals spoke
A character like Vincent could have been made into a one-dimensional caricature in the hands of a less-skilled actor.
But Alex breathed life and some humanity into Vincent despite certain weaknesses in the script.
A fascinating performance, hopefully the first of many more to come this year.

thanks Susan that was really interesting.