Moonlight Episode Discussion - Ep 11: Love Lasts Forever

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Re: Moonlight Episode Discussion - Ep 11: Love Lasts Forever

Post by GuardianAngel »

darkstarrising wrote:I remember hearing the same thing, GA, about liking Talbot in season two. I wonder what he did that would cause that of attitude.

And grace, I nearly posted over you, but maybe if they hadn't finished with Sonata as they did, and Beth did push Mick away, I can see them setting Talbot up to 'console her'. Or, if she didn't push Mick away, Talbot might have made a play for her anyway. The former would have created some tension that would have carried the show further. The latter might have gotten Talbot killed. :giggle:
I don't think I would have liked that. At least not Beth having feelings for Talbot. That would have been a little icky for me. One ADA down, moving on to the next.
allegrita wrote:Annnnnd... back on topic, I've really been fascinated with the discussion of that scene between Mick, Beth, and Josh in her apartment. I hadn't noticed some of the nuances before you pointed them out, GA. Beautiful job, as usual.
Lucky wrote:One thing I've always thought about that scene when Josh comes in, is that he is acknowledging Mick's right to be there, when he asks to speak to Beth, alone. It's always seemed to me that this is significant.
I agree. I thought that moment between Josh and Mick was significant. Josh does seem to acknowledge (or acquiesce) Mick's right to be there. And Mick seems to be feeling that right.
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Re: Moonlight Episode Discussion - Ep 11: Love Lasts Forever

Post by MoonMarg »

I always look at this episode and think "its the beginning of the end". They started totally transforming the show from what we had known and loved. They killed off Josh, then Maureen, Coraline and Carl got the chop for the last 4 episodes, even Buzzwire was axed (and to me it was like a character in itself). Mick, Beth and Josef were the only familiar things left.

Killing off Josh though was by far the biggest mistake in my opinion. Having Beth break up with him would have been much more fun. Even if Beth didn't get with Mick it still would have created alot of tension between them all. Imagine Josh and Mick running into each other at crime scenes etc , and the same goes with Josh and Beth. Their jobs were all inter-twined - it was bound to happen. It had so many possibilites. :hankie:
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Re: Moonlight Episode Discussion - Ep 11: Love Lasts Forever

Post by HotMicks »

Wow, MM, in just a couple of sentences, you summed it up perfectly (and I too, was REALLY pissed about what they did with Buzzwire... that was one of my favorite aspects of Beth's character).

Also, I think you should take your second paragraph over to the Champagne Challenge suggestions thread... they're cranking on this kind of stuff over there right now and it is REALLY intriguing. Someone said that FtP was originally conceived as four episodes but they were merged into one due to the shorter season a la the writers' strike. Your suggestions would fit in perfectly with the "what would those four episodes be?" ideas.
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Re: Moonlight Episode Discussion - Ep 11: Love Lasts Forever

Post by GuardianAngel »

While Josh gets cleaned up in the bathroom, he and Beth talk. She says he can’t recuse himself from this case - it gives the message that the DA is intimidated.
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He knows. Moving ahead is a noble idea but this is reality.
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Tejada mutilated a prosecutor’s wife in El Salvador. Beth says that kind of thing doesn’t happen here, in the U.S. (No? She’s an investigative reporter, she should know better).
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Josh says to tell that to the families of the three DEA agents he supposedly killed in El Centro. He tells her that if it were him that was marked he’d never step down. But it’s not.
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Beth argues. He’s spent two years of his life on this case. He knows. But he can’t put her at risk (Josh is seriously wracking up some GA points here.)
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It means a lot to Beth that he would do this.
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Beth pushes for him to go through with it. If he doesn’t, Tejada will just move on to do the same thing to someone else.
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Josh has to do it. It’s the right thing to do.
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Josh gives a small smile. He forgot how cute Beth was when she’s crusading.
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Beth gives a tiny laugh and she looks like there’s a lot of mixed emotion behind it.
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Josh leans forward and kisses her.
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Beth leans back and look at him. Again, a lot going on in that head of hers.
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They go at it.
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Another pause.
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And then it’s morning and they wake up next to each other. Josh is stroking her arm and kissing her shoulder. He tells her that he’s missed her so much. Beth still looks torn.
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Meanwhile.....Mick is waiting outside Bionalysis. His VO tells us that he’s thinking of telling Beth how he feels.
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Back to the couple in bed. Beth’s telling Josh that she knows she hasn’t been here for him. He says she’s here now, that’s all that matters. (So it looks like they’ve got a clean slate - a new beginning. Is it what she wants?)
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Mick’s still waiting, hoping that everything is okay.
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Beth tells Josh she’s got caught up in her work (is Mick supposed to be lumped in with ‘work’?). Josh says he loves that about her.
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He wouldn’t want her to be any different. (I find this statement to be a very important one. Especially after finding out about Sarah. To BE with a vampire you would certainly have to change.)
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Josh’s phone rings, it’s work (Bobby) and he gets up. Beth has a moment - trying to get it together.
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Josh is asking for a security detail ASAP an for them to coordinate it with Carl. Beth tells him she doesn’t want any academy cadets or chain smoking detectives.
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Another moment of thought is interrupted by a knock at the door.
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Beth pads to the door in just a t-shirt (I found this to be a little unrealistic - who answers the door like that? Especially with her boyfriend there.) And guess who? Mick gives her a once over - starting at the bottom and works his way up.
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I guess it’s obvious to him what happened and why Beth didn’t show up (He IS a detective after all. And his vampire senses must be able to pick up Josh’s scent on her as well as other things.) Beth wants to know what time it is and Mick’s says it’s an hour after she was suppose to meet him.
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Beth apologizes, she lost track of time. Mick doesn’t seem to be upset. He tells her he dropped a sample off with Dr. Lynn.
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Mick’s attention is caught by the conversation Josh is having on the phone. (Again, there is no surprise from Mick that Josh is there.) He hears ‘tact squad’ and is surprised.
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Someone needs police protection?
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Beth gives a tight smile and answers. "Me"
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She gives Mick a signal to come in and as she closes the door her face makes it clear just how crazy all this is.
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Re: Moonlight Episode Discussion - Ep 11: Love Lasts Forever

Post by francis »

I can't get over how good the acting of all three was in that episode. Beth's (Sophia's) facial expressions were so spot on to show her horror about the situation, her being torn between two men, two worlds actually. She got Josh back, this is what she wanted, but now she's not sure she really wanted it, but feels guilty for having doubts at all in the face of such danger and such chivalry. He was ready to give everything up for her!
Josh was never sympathetic up to that episode. Jordan and Sophia and the script really managed to make me mourn for him.
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Re: Moonlight Episode Discussion - Ep 11: Love Lasts Forever

Post by allegrita »

Well, I kinda liked Josh before, especially in Fever, and that little scene in Sleeping Beauty. But in this episode Jordan Belfi got a chance to show up what an outstanding actor he is. In baseball vernacular, he hit this one out of the park, and demonstrated that he's definitely in the same league as Alex and Sophia.

Re: Beth answering the door in a T-shirt. That is a very unfortunate piece of direction, in my opinion. It would have been so much more believable if she'd pulled on sweats (maybe even she could have been pulling the shirt down as she hurried to the door), and she should've called, "Who is it?" Mick would have answered, and the story could have moved on from there. This was a definite miscue in an otherwise excellent episode.
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Re: Moonlight Episode Discussion - Ep 11: Love Lasts Forever

Post by PNWgal »

I have a feeling the writers were trying to make a rather obvious point - Beth's boyfriend had spent the night and they wanted to drive it home that Mick knew because she answered her answer the door in an oversized tshirt. Because viewers are THAT stupid... :roll:
francis wrote:Beth's (Sophia's) facial expressions were so spot on to show her horror about the situation, her being torn between two men, two worlds actually.
Agreed - as much as I grumbled about Beth in this ep., I couldn't help but feel for her.
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Re: Moonlight Episode Discussion - Ep 11: Love Lasts Forever

Post by Luxe de Luxe »

oh, this was just a fantastic sequence.

And GA, so insightful. I'd never really thought about Josh's comment about loving her exactly the way she was before. I think you're right. That was absolutely hitting on one of the key themes of this, Beth's need to make a decision about staying the same (human) or changing (needing to keep secrets, ultimately perhaps becoming a vampire.)

The kiss in this sequence is crucial. It looked so awkward, physically uncomfortable, and yet, part of me felt that when Beth pulls away that first time and looks deeply into Josh's eyes, that she's seeing him again for the first time in a long time. I think when they kiss again, she's really beginning to feel the passion. The final 'evidence', if you like, that she really was feeling something for him again, was her forgetting that Mick was waiting for her at the lab. For me, that meant she was entirely engaged with Josh at that moment in time.


ADDING COMMENT (after seeing Pgal's post).... I think the writer's HAD to give Beth and Josh a scene like this, otherwise we wouldn't have had any sympathy for her later on and perhaps would even have felt cross with her.
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Re: Moonlight Episode Discussion - Ep 11: Love Lasts Forever

Post by NocturneInCMoll »

MoonMarg wrote:Killing off Josh though was by far the biggest mistake in my opinion. Having Beth break up with him would have been much more fun. Even if Beth didn't get with Mick it still would have created alot of tension between them all. Imagine Josh and Mick running into each other at crime scenes etc , and the same goes with Josh and Beth. Their jobs were all inter-twined - it was bound to happen. It had so many possibilites. :hankie:
I recently wrote a one-shot (Between a Rock and a Hard Place) in which Josh deals with Tejada a little differently and stays alive--but as it is only a one-shot, it's only a catalyst to some of the tension you would have liked to see; if I ever get around to writing a sequel to it, that's when things would be more interesting...
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Re: Moonlight Episode Discussion - Ep 11: Love Lasts Forever

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Luxe de Luxe wrote:
The kiss in this sequence is crucial. It looked so awkward, physically uncomfortable, and yet, part of me felt that when Beth pulls away that first time and looks deeply into Josh's eyes, that she's seeing him again for the first time in a long time. I think when they kiss again, she's really beginning to feel the passion. The final 'evidence', if you like, that she really was feeling something for him again, was her forgetting that Mick was waiting for her at the lab. For me, that meant she was entirely engaged with Josh at that moment in time.


ADDING COMMENT (after seeing Pgal's post).... I think the writer's HAD to give Beth and Josh a scene like this, otherwise we wouldn't have had any sympathy for her later on and perhaps would even have felt cross with her.
I nearly had to turn away when watching the awkwardness of this love scene... it was uncomfortable.... and icky. But I agree, at a certain point during the ordeal, she began to go with it. And by morning, she seemed into it-- so much so that she forgot about Mick. Horrors!!!

But yeah, going to the door in a tee shirt was ridiculous. No one does that.

And interesting point you and PGal make about the writers having to barf this up so the audience may feel that Beth has a right to mourn Josh later. It just did not work for me. I turned against her here. Did not want to, did not mean to, and I realize most of you had a different reaction. But FdL, SB and this ep did me IN! Isn't that interesting, our different reactions to Beth in the last few eps, when in the earlier eps, she was the North Star of the series? That's actually kinda a cool thing, I think. They created a character, well two, actually, cos Cora was the same way, that people read very individually and, while at the time it kinda split the fandom, sorta, it also really made an interesting stew. We all loved the boys... you may prefer Mick or Josef, but you LOVE em both. The GIRLS were where the arguments took place. Where lines were drawn. Where we identified or did not.

And I wonder how much of that was on purpose... and how much just serendipity...

And I don't know if we've discussed this anywhere, so please forgive if we have. ONE of the reasons I had enjoyed Beth in the earlier eps is that Sophia is not a great beauty, to me. She's a cute girl, with some striking features but also some, uh, odd ones, not classically beautiful ones. And her figure is not the typical big-bust, no-ass Hollywood chick. She is a thinner, Hollywood version of a regular girl. So to ME, she was a stand in for a normal person. Mick didn't fall for an Angelina Jolie, Megan Fox, young Kathleen Turner. He fell for a real girl. That seemed to be a significant point about MICK. He HAD fallen for a vixen, Megan Fox type, but this go round, he went with a normal looking person. I identified with her.

So I was ticked with her here. And for whatever reason, I never got over it. But so fascinating to read that many of you got mad with her here too, but you DID get over it.

The whole Beth thing... a rorschach test?? :laugh:
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Re: Moonlight Episode Discussion - Ep 11: Love Lasts Forever

Post by librarian_7 »

I do find it interesting that Jordan has said that the way the scene was originally acted, Beth was almost the agressor in the love scene--that there was no doubt in how she kissed him that she was completely into it. I've always wondered if that was so, or wishfult hinking on Jordan's part...


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Re: Moonlight Episode Discussion - Ep 11: Love Lasts Forever

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librarian_7 wrote:I do find it interesting that Jordan has said that the way the scene was originally acted, Beth was almost the agressor in the love scene--that there was no doubt in how she kissed him that she was completely into it. I've always wondered if that was so, or wishfult hinking on Jordan's part...
Yeeeeeeeeeah, I'm thinking a bit of wishful thinking. She did not look like she was fully on board with those passionate kisses. Her mouth and chin were kind of tilted down and back like she was trying to avoid his lips a little.
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Re: Moonlight Episode Discussion - Ep 11: Love Lasts Forever

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librarian_7 wrote:I do find it interesting that Jordan has said that the way the scene was originally acted, Beth was almost the agressor in the love scene--that there was no doubt in how she kissed him that she was completely into it. I've always wondered if that was so, or wishfult hinking on Jordan's part...


Lucky

Originally acted... as opposed to how it was finally shot??
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Re: Moonlight Episode Discussion - Ep 11: Love Lasts Forever

Post by darkstarrising »

wpgrace wrote:
And I don't know if we've discussed this anywhere, so please forgive if we have. ONE of the reasons I had enjoyed Beth in the earlier eps is that Sophia is not a great beauty, to me. She's a cute girl, with some striking features but also some, uh, odd ones, not classically beautiful ones. And her figure is not the typical big-bust, no-ass Hollywood chick. She is a thinner, Hollywood version of a regular girl. So to ME, she was a stand in for a normal person. Mick didn't fall for an Angelina Jolie, Megan Fox, young Kathleen Turner. He fell for a real girl. That seemed to be a significant point about MICK. He HAD fallen for a vixen, Megan Fox type, but this go round, he went with a normal looking person. I identified with her.

So I was ticked with her here. And for whatever reason, I never got over it. But so fascinating to read that many of you got mad with her here too, but you DID get over it.

The whole Beth thing... a rorschach test?? :laugh:
Interesting viewpoint, grace...I agree that Beth was more the everywoman than Coraline was ever meant to be....and Sophia portrayed her realistically. Funny thing is that in BC, I thought she looked very much like a young Kathleen Turner as she was heading into Club Valis, probably because of the way her hair was pulled back. :giggle:

I really wish someone, one of the actors or even one of the writers, would spill their guts as to what was really going on with the apparent change in characterizations, especially of Beth. Were they really setting her up to become darker (staking Coraline and putting a contract out on Dean Foster)? Would Mick be put off by that or turned on? Or were they just throwing darts and seeing which version of Beth stuck?

What about the overall direction of the series as they headed into what they thought was season 2? Were they trying to morph into CSI-Vampire? Believe it or not, this is actually still on topic as the it was human drug cartels that were behind Josh's death in this episode....same is true of FTP, Click, WLB. In the Mortal Cure, there was a storyline with 'bad vamps' , but by the time they got to Sonata, even the 'bad vamp' (Emma) wasn't so bad after all, just bored and foolish.

*dsr gets off her soapbox and quiets down now* :Mickangel:
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Re: Moonlight Episode Discussion - Ep 11: Love Lasts Forever

Post by allegrita »

wpgrace wrote:
librarian_7 wrote:I do find it interesting that Jordan has said that the way the scene was originally acted, Beth was almost the agressor in the love scene--that there was no doubt in how she kissed him that she was completely into it. I've always wondered if that was so, or wishfult hinking on Jordan's part...


Lucky

Originally acted... as opposed to how it was finally shot??
Grace, I'm pretty sure Jordan said at the Gala in Chicago that they reshot the love scene. It wouldn't have worked for me the other way at all. I definitely see Beth working herself up to it. That is a believable scenario for me. Beth "settling" with a lot of determination for Josh, especially after seeing his courage and sacrifice for her sake that night. And essentially talking herself into going with the kiss because dammit, he loved her, and she oughta love him--he was worthy, he was a good guy, he was the right choice. Safe. Not so scary. (Yeah, suuuuure, Beth...real safe.) :Mickangel:

And hey--Josh was handsome and a good kisser, and he loved her. She'd been with him for nearly a year and a half by that time, and the body remembers. She did get into it. But in the morning she didn't feel good about herself at all.
darkstarrising wrote:What about the overall direction of the series as they headed into what they thought was season 2? Were they trying to morph into CSI-Vampire? Believe it or not, this is actually still on topic as the it was human drug cartels that were behind Josh's death in this episode....same is true of FTP, Click, WLB. In the Mortal Cure, there was a storyline with 'bad vamps' , but by the time they got to Sonata, even the 'bad vamp' (Emma) wasn't so bad after all, just bored and foolish.
DSR, I've wondered the same things so many times. It would be wonderful to get an answer from someone in the know... if there really is an answer as to the direction they were aiming to go in Season 2. But in all honesty, under the care of Harry and Gabby, and with all the "notes" CBS was ramming down the writers' throats those last 4 episodes, I think Moonlight really had lost its focus, as you say. It had lost its fairytale feel, its dark, shadowy noir vibe. It wasn't a detective story anymore; it was trying to be an adventure. Losing the news angle was critical. So was losing the connection to the Duvalls. The new vamps were very human-seeming in a lot of ways: Logan, the geek in the basement; Leo the pedophile; Anders the plastic surgeon; the vamp teen paparazzi; Emma and Jackson the sports managers; Lisa the cheerleader. They could've been humans who claimed to be vampires, for all we knew. With the exception of the Cleaners, the vamps in the final 4 were bland and colorless for the most part.

Only What's Left Behind had some of the feel of the first 12, and I believe that's due to Jill Blotevogel's influence.
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