Moonlight Episode Discussion - Ep 11: Love Lasts Forever

Post Reply
User avatar
allegrita
Moonlightaholic Admin
Posts: 45960
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:22 am
Location: Snuggled under the brown afghan, watching the fire

Re: Moonlight Episode Discussion - Ep 11: Love Lasts Forever

Post by allegrita »

One of the things I hated about the final 4 episodes is that not only did Coraline disappear off the radar, but so did Josh. Beth's mourning period for him appears to have taken about a week. I know I'm getting ahead of myself here, but this episode reminds me of how much Josh added to the story of Moonlight--how nuanced his small part was, how well acted. And then they just dropped him?! Out of sight, out of mind?! Sheesh.

I've been loving reading your thoughts this morning. I feel very much the same as PNWgal. Beth had warring things going on in her head, and she couldn't face any of them.

The love scene with Josh really hit me: it was so obvious that Beth didn't want him to kiss her. I could see her mentally gearing up for it. And I bet money that Beth was fantasizing about making love with Mick the whole time, too.

And then the next day Beth was almost shot, she found out she had Coraline's blood type, Josh was snatched, and then just when she felt that rush of joy and relief, he was shot! She felt his blood leaking out of him, couldn't stop it from flowing, could barely contain her revulsion and terror in order to help Mick as he tried to save Josh. And she looked up at her angel, the one who could do ANYTHING, and begged him to save Josh in the way that only he could do. And he said no.

I've thought about another thing, too. Beth has seen Mick dispatch bad guys several times. She must be filled with anger at him that he didn't snap the necks of Bustos and Huerta when he had the chance. Why Lee Jay's goons, and not these two?! If he'd done that, Josh would be alive.

I agree that Beth was probably throwing up when she ran away...but I also absolutely agree that she was staying away from Mick, unable to cope with her overwhelming guilt and fury and remorse and grief and shock.
Image
User avatar
darkstarrising
100% Moonlightaholic
Posts: 11014
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:25 am

Re: Moonlight Episode Discussion - Ep 11: Love Lasts Forever

Post by darkstarrising »

Glad I'm not the only one that felt this way, alle...
The love scene with Josh really hit me: it was so obvious that Beth didn't want him to kiss her. I could see her mentally gearing up for it. And I bet money that Beth was fantasizing about making love with Mick the whole time, too.
What really confused me though was the 'morning after' chat between Josh and Beth....it seemed at first that she might level with him, then decided to just go with the flow....why not? She could do that later....

Then there's the scene between Mick and Josh talking about protecting Beth and you see Beth in the background, eavesdropping and looking guilty as sin.

Also agree about Coraline and Josh dropping off the radar...perhaps Coraline's story might have been picked up in the second season, but Josh's was likely over.
darkstarrising
Love – the universal language, the story of Moonlight
View My Fanfic Index

Image

Thanks to the talented and generous Phoenix for my beautiful banner!
User avatar
PNWgal
Moonlightaholic Mod
Posts: 14732
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:40 pm
Location: Stuck in the middle between Mick and Josef

Re: Moonlight Episode Discussion - Ep 11: Love Lasts Forever

Post by PNWgal »

That was beautifully stated, Alle. :hankie: :hug:

While I wanted Josh out of the picture, I sure didn't want him dead - a true triangle with him as the jilted boyfriend would have been much more satisfying and would have made for some fabulous story lines. I loved Eric Close, but he really just didn't "do" it for me as foil for Mick. (the writers should have had a few discussions with Nocturn about how to TRULY utilize Josh. :teeth: )
allegrita wrote:The love scene with Josh really hit me: it was so obvious that Beth didn't want him to kiss her. I could see her mentally gearing up for it. And I bet money that Beth was fantasizing about making love with Mick the whole time, too.
I agree - COMPLETELY. And - what a punch to the gut for Mick the next morning. I'm sure he had everything figured out the second Beth opened the door in nothing but a tshirt (BTW, who the heck DOES that??)
allegrita wrote:I've thought about another thing, too. Beth has seen Mick dispatch bad guys several times. She must be filled with anger at him that he didn't snap the necks of Bustos and Huerta when he had the chance. Why Lee Jay's goons, and not these two?! If he'd done that, Josh would be alive.
Great point, and one I've never thought about. I'm sure that had to be going through Beth's head amidst all the other jumbled stuff she was thinking and feeling.
Image

Banner by the talented GuardianAngel


"It is better to keep silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." - George Eliot

"The dogs may bark, but the caravan passes on." - old Arab proverb

"Do the best you can do. Love many. Trust few." - Jack Ingram
User avatar
librarian_7
Forever Moonlightaholic
Posts: 23481
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:21 pm
Location: wherever Josef is
Contact:

Re: Moonlight Episode Discussion - Ep 11: Love Lasts Forever

Post by librarian_7 »

PNWgal wrote: I agree - COMPLETELY. And - what a punch to the gut for Mick the next morning. I'm sure he had everything figured out the second Beth opened the door in nothing but a tshirt (BTW, who the heck DOES that??)
Umm, especially someone who is under a death threat. She could have been opening the door to, oh, say, Bustos and Huerta.

(And Mick didn't need to figure out much. Remember that enhanced vamp sense of smell? It would have been blindingly obvious to him what she'd been doing all night...)

Lucky
User avatar
PNWgal
Moonlightaholic Mod
Posts: 14732
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:40 pm
Location: Stuck in the middle between Mick and Josef

Re: Moonlight Episode Discussion - Ep 11: Love Lasts Forever

Post by PNWgal »

Exactly what I was thinking, Lucky...except I didn't state it very well. :ysmile:
Image

Banner by the talented GuardianAngel


"It is better to keep silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." - George Eliot

"The dogs may bark, but the caravan passes on." - old Arab proverb

"Do the best you can do. Love many. Trust few." - Jack Ingram
User avatar
allegrita
Moonlightaholic Admin
Posts: 45960
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:22 am
Location: Snuggled under the brown afghan, watching the fire

Re: Moonlight Episode Discussion - Ep 11: Love Lasts Forever

Post by allegrita »

Yeah--I wonder if they were reminding us of that when Mick talked about the enhanced vampire sense (referring to hearing in that case) could help, but sometimes it could really hurt. Well, yeah, those enhanced senses must REALLY have hurt that morning. :Mickangel:
Image
User avatar
PNWgal
Moonlightaholic Mod
Posts: 14732
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:40 pm
Location: Stuck in the middle between Mick and Josef

Re: Moonlight Episode Discussion - Ep 11: Love Lasts Forever

Post by PNWgal »

allegrita wrote:Yeah--I wonder if they were reminding us of that when Mick talked about the enhanced vampire sense (referring to hearing in that case) could help, but sometimes it could really hurt. Well, yeah, those enhanced senses must REALLY have hurt that morning. :Mickangel:
Agreed. It's bad enough to know something like that, but to be presented with a live show of it (by smelling the past), that's gotta cut deep.

I'm just thinking of a guy who can't deal with his feelings finally getting to the point of wanting to open up to the one he loves...and be confronted with that. :sigh:

Edited to clarify
Image

Banner by the talented GuardianAngel


"It is better to keep silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." - George Eliot

"The dogs may bark, but the caravan passes on." - old Arab proverb

"Do the best you can do. Love many. Trust few." - Jack Ingram
User avatar
wpgrace
100% Moonlightaholic
Posts: 16429
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:25 pm

Re: Moonlight Episode Discussion - Ep 11: Love Lasts Forever

Post by wpgrace »

darkstarrising wrote: Yet she's got to feel her own betrayal of Josh. I see 'Love Lasts Forever' as a continuation of 'Sleeping Beauty' as least relative to the Mick-Beth-Josh triangle. At the end of SB, Beth has had her first real encounter with the dangerous aspect of loving a vampire and runs back to the safety of Josh. She lets him think all is well, even though she knows differently. In a way she used him as a shield or barrier between Mick and herself. With Josh's death in LLF, there is no longer anyone in between Mick and herself, no one to hide behind. She is running away from Mick right now, because she's not capable to facing the truth of her feelings for him.
I am very much enjoying your and Pgal's convo here... riveted!

But I am MUCH less forgiving of Beth here than y'all are... this, and SB, are the eps that kinda turned me into a Cora girl. But I DO get her inner conflict. I'm just not particularly able to forgive her for all of it. And yeah, first time he's turned her down... time for her to grow up.

allegrita wrote: One of the things I hated about the final 4 episodes is that not only did Coraline disappear off the radar, but so did Josh. Beth's mourning period for him appears to have taken about a week. I know I'm getting ahead of myself here, but this episode reminds me of how much Josh added to the story of Moonlight--how nuanced his small part was, how well acted. And then they just dropped him?! Out of sight, out of mind?! Sheesh.
And SO agree with this... after the writers' strike, they (the writers) kinda lost something important... and I gotta admit, Beth's truncated mourning period did NOT increase my admiration for her either. I had pulled for MickBeth right along with everyone else, and then I stopped. Tho I continued to pull for MICK to be happy... even if that meant with Beth.

Interesting how we all have such different reactions to BETH, particularly in THESE eps, isn't it?
Image
Banner by redwinter101. I miss you, Beloved.
Awesome avatar by the awesome, clever, and gracious Lilly.

If you read a lot of books you are considered well read. But if you watch a lot of TV, you're not considered well viewed. Lilly Tomlin

Grateful to Alex for Mick, Andy, and McG. :)
User avatar
wpgrace
100% Moonlightaholic
Posts: 16429
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:25 pm

Re: Moonlight Episode Discussion - Ep 11: Love Lasts Forever

Post by wpgrace »

allegrita wrote:Yeah--I wonder if they were reminding us of that when Mick talked about the enhanced vampire sense (referring to hearing in that case) could help, but sometimes it could really hurt. Well, yeah, those enhanced senses must REALLY have hurt that morning. :Mickangel:

But didn't our hero act remarkably classy about it? :notworthy:
Image
Banner by redwinter101. I miss you, Beloved.
Awesome avatar by the awesome, clever, and gracious Lilly.

If you read a lot of books you are considered well read. But if you watch a lot of TV, you're not considered well viewed. Lilly Tomlin

Grateful to Alex for Mick, Andy, and McG. :)
User avatar
librarian_7
Forever Moonlightaholic
Posts: 23481
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:21 pm
Location: wherever Josef is
Contact:

Re: Moonlight Episode Discussion - Ep 11: Love Lasts Forever

Post by librarian_7 »

wpgrace wrote:
allegrita wrote:Yeah--I wonder if they were reminding us of that when Mick talked about the enhanced vampire sense (referring to hearing in that case) could help, but sometimes it could really hurt. Well, yeah, those enhanced senses must REALLY have hurt that morning. :Mickangel:

But didn't our hero act remarkably classy about it? :notworthy:
Yes he did, although I think his expression is a bit stunned. Of course, Beth sort of belatedly realizes how bad the whole t-shirt thing looks. She is certainly embarrassed.

I always have wondered, when the phone rang earlier, why that didn't jog her memory about having an appointment in the morning. Say, to meet with Mr. Tall Dark and Immortal about something of vital interest to him.

Lucky
User avatar
darkstarrising
100% Moonlightaholic
Posts: 11014
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:25 am

Re: Moonlight Episode Discussion - Ep 11: Love Lasts Forever

Post by darkstarrising »

wpgrace wrote:after the writers' strike, they (the writers) kinda lost something important... and I gotta admit, Beth's truncated mourning period did NOT increase my admiration for her either. I had pulled for MickBeth right along with everyone else, and then I stopped. Tho I continued to pull for MICK to be happy... even if that meant with Beth.

Interesting how we all have such different reactions to BETH, particularly in THESE eps, isn't it?
I think you've hit on a key aspect here, grace. When the writer's strike came along, the show had developed its stride, so to speak, then came to a screeching halt for what, 12 or 13 weeks? Had that interruption not come along, would the episode following 'The Mortal Cure' have been the one we saw as 'Fated to Pretend'? Somehow, I don't think so....

With all the behind the scenes drama that was going on with ML and the writer's strike, I can only imagine the machinations going on with the producers who perhaps wanted to change the direction of the show. Maybe they wanted it less about vampires and more 'procedural' ....what we got in the last four episodes was clearly on a different track than the first 12. And while I loved parts of the last four, especially 'What's Left Behind', I wish that the writers that were let go had been allowed to stay and continue weaving the tapestry they'd started.

Part of that change in direction clearly affected the character of Beth....in the last four episodes, she just seemed so angry and hard, although there were glimpses of the Beth we had come to know and love. In the last four, she wanted to further her relationship with Mick, she quit her job, taking one with the DA's office (perhaps setting up another triangle with Mick-Beth-Talbot), got jealous, then pushed Mick away once again. I only wish we knew what 'vision' they had for the second season especially relative to Beth. Maybe then, her change would make more sense.
darkstarrising
Love – the universal language, the story of Moonlight
View My Fanfic Index

Image

Thanks to the talented and generous Phoenix for my beautiful banner!
User avatar
PNWgal
Moonlightaholic Mod
Posts: 14732
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:40 pm
Location: Stuck in the middle between Mick and Josef

Re: Moonlight Episode Discussion - Ep 11: Love Lasts Forever

Post by PNWgal »

I'll agree with the mourning period for Josh lasting all of a week - that was jarring, and not like the Beth I'd been introduced to. I guess I can forgive her a little more readily - the girl was conflicted. In a short space of time she a) found out Mick was the guy who'd been stalking her for 20+ years, b) found out Morgan was Coraline, c) thought Josef was dead, d) found out vampire Turnings can go wrong, e) lost her boyfriend to a gang banger's bullet, and f) found out her guardian angel had feet of clay after all. That stuff can turn a girl on her head. Add a healthy dose of guilt for lying to a guy who didn't deserve to be lied to, shame at feeling something for Mick even though Josh was dead, and I can understand her a little better.

(Granted, this understanding didn't come right away. I was mad at Beth for a very long time.)

I think if the series had progressed along the lines it SHOULD have, there would have been a longer period of mourning and they would have played out Mick's humanity a bit more.
Image

Banner by the talented GuardianAngel


"It is better to keep silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." - George Eliot

"The dogs may bark, but the caravan passes on." - old Arab proverb

"Do the best you can do. Love many. Trust few." - Jack Ingram
User avatar
francis
100% Moonlightaholic
Posts: 11556
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:45 am

Re: Moonlight Episode Discussion - Ep 11: Love Lasts Forever

Post by francis »

Do you think the writers included the three-month hiatus into their timeline? I mean, maybe Beth mourned more than a week. She was still mourning in The Mortal Cure. Then there was the hiatus, and no Christmas episode or anything, and then they were at Fated to Pretend with her meeting Mick for a picnic. It would make sense that she kept her distance for a few weeks at least, and figured out that after all she still had feelings for Mick that wouldn't go away despite her guilty feelings.
I know that Mick told Josef he had been human for a few weeks, but I guess that could be chalked up to Moonlight math. Make it 3 months and I would feel much more comfortable with Beth's behaviour. Mick had a great vacation, and then met Beth again. That's my story because it's comforting. :biggrin:
User avatar
darkstarrising
100% Moonlightaholic
Posts: 11014
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:25 am

Re: Moonlight Episode Discussion - Ep 11: Love Lasts Forever

Post by darkstarrising »

Unfortunately, Moonlight math isn't to blame here (would that it were)....Mick also still has the cuts on his face from his encounter with Lance...Beth only mourned for a week, but in hindsight, maybe Josh's death, sad as it was, freed her to finally face herself and her love for Mick.
darkstarrising
Love – the universal language, the story of Moonlight
View My Fanfic Index

Image

Thanks to the talented and generous Phoenix for my beautiful banner!
User avatar
librarian_7
Forever Moonlightaholic
Posts: 23481
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:21 pm
Location: wherever Josef is
Contact:

Re: Moonlight Episode Discussion - Ep 11: Love Lasts Forever

Post by librarian_7 »

I think he also points out at the beginning of FtP that he's been human for 6 days, 8 hours, and 42 minutes (but who's counting, right?) as he wakes up and heads off to have that famous picnic at the beach. I guess there is a question of how long passed between LLF and the events of TMC. But if Josh's funeral was at the end of TMC...it can't have been more than a few days.

Lucky
Post Reply

Return to “Episode Discussion”