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Re: Fleur de Lis (Episode Nine)

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:27 am
by redwinter101
I loved this scene. It's wonderful that some of the most significant insight we get into Mick and Coraline's relationship comes not from them, but from Josef. I love that he didn't sugar the pill - he knows there's something going on with Mick and Beth but he still gives it to her straight, tells her the depth and power of Mick and Coraline's relationship. It reinforces the conversation Mick and Beth had about the intense affair - but "terrifying, self-destructive freak show" is a hell of a lot stronger than that!

I was always a little uncomfortable with Beth's determination that she is central to all of this, not just by being kidnapped, but by being somehow special and significant. To me, her significance is as the catalyst for Mick walking away for good (and by extension, killing Coraline), not because there was something inherently special or valuable about her. It may well be that the writers' intention was that there WAS something special about Beth (e.g. her blood) but the way Beth brought it up here just seemed out of sync with the rest of the conversation.

Red

Re: Fleur de Lis (Episode Nine)

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 1:47 pm
by GuardianAngel
I really like this scene too. Josef is wonderful in it.

I have to disagree with you, Red, about Beth. I thought that question was within reason. As the victim of a kidnapping I'm sure she has lots of questions. If Coraline returned it would have to cause Beth some concern. Yes, it's very much about Mick (especially for the audience) but it would churn up a lot of feelings for her which are very personal. She must have asked herself these questions a million times over the years. And here's Josef answering her questions, straight up and who has known Coraline for a very long time. I think it makes sense that she would ask him why Coraline chose her.

Re: Fleur de Lis (Episode Nine)

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 1:57 pm
by wpgrace
WIth Red on this... I found the question from Beth jarring and the way Sophia delivered it even more jarring. I get your point, GA, I do...and yeah, she must have had some questions. In fact, I kinda think it WAS Sophia's delivery of the line that made it seem so inappropriate for me. I mean Josef is sharing some pretty raw stuff that oughta be notable to her, and she's kinda not even reacting to that...

Tho I love the way HE reacted to HER question. In the MOST casual tone, as if it was of no import AT ALL who the little girl was, he just says wrong place wrong time... let's take it back to Mick shall we? It was really all about Mick...

Which kinda aligns with my whole world view... so I WOULD agree with Josef there... :giggle:

Re: Fleur de Lis (Episode Nine)

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:53 pm
by allegrita
I tried to put myself into Beth's mind there (for something else I was doing), and I believe that her feelings about it are completely tied in to her 4-year-old self's reaction to being kidnapped and rescued. To a little child, the entire world really does revolve around you. Beth was taken, held, and rescued in a pretty dramatic fashion--and everything was presented to her as if she was the most interesting participant. Then imagine what her life was like when she got back home. Her mom (and dad, if she had one) would have focused intense attention, worry, and love on her for a long time. She felt her guardian angel out there, looking out for her. Once again, it was all about Beth.

So looking at it from that perspective, her question to Josef makes perfect sense to me. And I think it was good for her to hear from Josef that maybe she really was just a pawn. In the long run, it might allow her to feel less victimized--if she was just at the wrong place in the wrong time, then maybe she doesn't have to worry for the rest of her life about something like that happening again. And if she can see Coraline's obsession with Mick as just that--instead of feeling like part of the obsession herself--she can begin to conquer her terror of Coraline. And staking her will help with that, too, I think--weird as that sounds. Beth realized when she staked Coraline that she did have the power to "kill" her demons--figuratively, not literally. That's one of the things I would have loved to see developed on the show--Beth's relationship with Coraline is so fascinating to me, and we lost that along with everything else when they dumped Coraline's story into Limbo. :sigh:
(Edited to fix a typo)

Re: Fleur de Lis (Episode Nine)

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 4:16 pm
by wpgrace
WHAT is up with you and the typos lately, Alle? :giggle: :smooch:

I agree it woulda been cool to have developed Beth's relationship with Cora... it was the triangle of these three that made both the girls most interesting, to me. Tho a Dynasty-style cat fight is not what I mean... :noway: I promise.

And yeeeeeeaaaaaahhhh... I think staking someone thru the heart probably DOES lesson one's fear of that person...tho I've never tested that theory... maybe if CBS doesn't play nice with Alex... :rolling:

Re: Fleur de Lis (Episode Nine)

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 5:44 pm
by PNWgal
I think this is probably one of my favorite scenes - Beth goes to the one place she knows she can get some answers. Mick's sure not going to tell her what she needs to know.

I think what I like best is we also get some answers about Mick and Coraline's relationship, seen through a third person's eyes. Granted, Josef is jaded and perhaps a bit biased, but his characterization of their relationship as a 'freak show' is telling - he said very plainly that had it continued, one of them would end up dead. And...one of them did - or so Mick thought. I don't doubt the love between them, but I do question the depth of that love. When Josef says "she wanted Mick and she got him", it reminded me of Scarlett O'Hara's love for Ashley Wilkes in Gone With the Wind. Ashley was the one thing Scarlett couldn't have and I think that fueled her obsession over the years. The difference is Coraline got what she wanted, but she did it in a way that damaged Mick's love for her.

Coraline loved Mick - but she didn't understand him. She thought making a family with him would bring him back and never understood that he could never inflict on a child what had happened to him. I've always felt she was genuinely perplexed by his stubbornness in clinging to his humanity. Mick loved Coraline - but he couldn't forgive her for taking his humanity and wouldn't let a child die because of him. Talk about star-crossed lovers!

I always loved the contrast between the the blonde, blue-eyed child and the brunette, dark-eyed woman who took her. It's almost like Coraline wanted to choose someone very different from herself, so Mick would accept the child more.

As for Beth...I think there was too much of a disconnect between "I found my guardian angel" Beth and angry, stalker, stake-em-in-the-heart Beth. A little more insight into her thought process as she came to terms with what she found out about Mick and remembering her kidnapping maybe wouldn't have made the "why did Coraline choose ME?" question a little less jarring.

Re: Fleur de Lis (Episode Nine)

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:15 pm
by Phoenix
allegrita wrote:...Beth realized when she staked Coraline that she did have the power to "kill" her demons--figuratively, not literally. That's one of the things I would have loved to see developed on the show--Beth's relationship with Coraline is so fascinating to me, and we lost that along with everything else when they dumped Coraline's story into Limbo. :sigh:
(Edited to fix a typo)


Two observations - one slightly OT. :whistle:

Beth nearly did kill Coraline - literally. Whether she knew "Morgan" was human or not, she still staked the woman.

At least one fan fic writer has thrown Beth and Coraline back together, post-Sonata. Just sayin'.

Re: Fleur de Lis (Episode Nine)

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:24 pm
by allegrita
(Nicely done, too!) Thank goodness for fanfic, is what I say. :thumbs:

Oh... and in Beth's defense, I honestly don't think she realized she could kill Morgan/Coraline by staking her when she was under the influence of the cure. I think she thought she was staking a vampire who would simply be paralyzed. She saw it happen to Mick, and she didn't have the knowledge Mick had, that Coraline under the cure really did have human frailty.

Re: Fleur de Lis (Episode Nine)

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:31 pm
by Phoenix
allegrita wrote:(Nicely done, too!) Thank goodness for fanfic, is what I say. :thumbs:

Oh... and in Beth's defense, I honestly don't think she realized she could kill Morgan/Coraline by staking her when she was under the influence of the cure. I think she thought she was staking a vampire who would simply be paralyzed. She saw it happen to Mick, and she didn't have the knowledge Mick had, that Coraline under the cure really did have human frailty.


I'm not denying that Beth lacked some of the facts of the situation - but she did suspect / know that somehow Coraline / Morgan was human. And which ever way you slice it, staking someone - vamp or not - is incredibly aggressive.

No matter what the provocation, Beth was still responsible for her behaviour. (In the various eps, Coraline, Mick, and Josef all suffered as a result of their actions, but Beth got away with staking Morgan, without consequence...)

Re: Fleur de Lis (Episode Nine)

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:40 pm
by allegrita
That's an interesting point. Maybe Beth had the consequence first, and did the "deserving" behavior later. :chin:

But actually, I think that Beth did suffer as a result of having staked Coraline. In an immediate sense, rather than taking Beth's side, Mick shoved her aside and cradled Coraline in his arms. Later, he made it very obvious to Beth (jumping ahead, sorry) that Coraline was his wife, and yes, he loved her very much. Staking Coraline put a huge gulf between Mick and Beth that couldn't be bridged by love alone. And (jumping ahead again, sorry GA, don't shoot me!) the gulf was widened by Josh's death, and Mick's refusal to turn him. So I think Beth suffered. Maybe not directly, but she got plenty of karma, and soon.

Re: Fleur de Lis (Episode Nine)

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:15 pm
by Phoenix
Apologies to GA for mixing up several eps here! :tomato:

I see your point, Alle, but considering that Coraline was (a) set on fire, and (b) taken by Lance, to most likely be tortured to death; Josef was almost murdered by an assassin, as a direct result of his relationship with Sarah; and Mick was almost killed by (...the murderer in OOTP whose name escapes me right now :dunce: ) I just don't see Beth having her feelings hurt as much of a consequence.

I've never stabbed anyone, but I can imagine the degree of physical force a person would have to use to drive a stake into someone's chest. Beth acted without hesitation, and it was a premeditated attack. She went to Mick's place with a weapon - that is a cold, calculated attack, not a crime of passion.

Re: Fleur de Lis (Episode Nine)

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:25 pm
by redwinter101
Beth was kidnapped and traumatised as a child. That seems like explanation enough of why, after finally unblocking the memories of what happened to her, she reacted with such violent force. I don't understand why so determined to make her cold and calculating in this scenario - this was revenge for what happened to her surely? Yes, it was years after the event but in close proximity to the re-emergence of the woman who kidnapped her. I think this counts as a lot more than having her feelings hurt.

Red

Re: Fleur de Lis (Episode Nine)

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:30 pm
by allegrita
I absolutely agree that the staking was a premeditated attack. I just don't think she was trying to kill Coraline. I definitely believe Beth wanted to inflict pain on Coraline. She's got a vengeful streak, and every single one of her buttons was pushed during the course of this episode alone. She wanted to make Coraline suffer the way Coraline made her suffer as a little girl. The fire was done by Mick--and not only that, but Coraline survived it, and came back cool, calm, collected, and gorgeous. Beth wanted to stop her and to punish her...hence, the stake. It wasn't Beth's finest moment by any means, but it makes perfect sense to me in terms of being a classic PTSA-prompted act.

Also... Mick's near-murder by Shepherd and Josef's near murder by Whitley (via Martan) were very delayed consequences. Beth may very well get hers in a few years... the consequences just weren't immediate. Give it time. Karma is patient. :snicker:

Re: Fleur de Lis (Episode Nine)

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:46 pm
by Phoenix
This is a classic case of seeing things differently, so I'm bowing out of the discussion at this point. The last thing I want to do is cause an argument.

Re: Fleur de Lis (Episode Nine)

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:47 pm
by librarian_7
Springing to the defense of Josef (yeah, I know...big surprise!). And sorry this is ahead of the game, OT...but.

Josef's near-murder at the hands of Whitley's hired gun was not a consequence he deserved. He committed no deliberate action deserving of negative consequences. He fell in love. He tried--at HER insistence--to turn Sarah, and it went wrong, through no fault of Josef's. And he took care of the inadvertant consequence of the failed turning by caring for her assiduously for over 50 years. Now, Whitley THOUGHT she must've been murdered, but still, that was not the case. I think Josef suffered mightily from the consequences of an accident that was not his fault.

Lucky