Season 2 speculation - would Josef betray Mick?

[MoonMarg]

This is why I always wished they would have had Josef do the voiceovers in at least 1 episode - to know what he was really thinking. I don't think anyone really knows the "Real Josef Kostan". I couldn't stand Josef in the first few episodes - I thought he was a rude, ruthless arogant prick!! However as we got to know him better I really liked him .

Would he betray Mick? I'm not so sure. But if he did - what generally comes between 2 mates...a girl! I think Josef liked Beth and liked Mick falling for her - he did encourage him in FTP, and he did give Beth some advice in Click on what was needed to help make the relationship work ie quit Buzzwire. So for me I think he was happy for the 2 of them but was probably a little bit jealous as well. I'm sure if the Legion thing had taken place things would have got very tricky for Mick having a human girlfriend. Whether this would have lead to somekind of betrayal on Josef's behalf I don't know. But I do believe Josef would do everything in his power to protect Mick, even at the expense of Beth, and hence risk losing Mick.

[nutmegger911]

Of course, Josef could do something that might be viewed by Mick as a betrayal. Surely, that would be cause for some interesting story.

[one.zebra]

Ok then!

Now that I've read (ok, skimmed) through the comments I'd like to propose a writing Challenge:

Write a senario in which Josef does betray (real or imagined) Mick, and what are Josef's motivatons/circumstance that would push him to do so......

Are you up to it, our wonderful fanfic writers?

[librarian_7]

Ok then!

Now that I've read (ok, skimmed) through the comments I'd like to propose a writing Challenge:

Write a senario in which Josef does betray (real or imagined) Mick, and what are Josef's motivatons/circumstance that would push him to do so......

Are you up to it, our wonderful fanfic writers?

Interesting idea, O.Z! We do have some upcoming challenge plans, to be announced soon, but this really should be put in the Challenge suggestion area, viewtopic.php?f=137&t=231

(And isn't it great that there are enough ideas to keep us writing fic...forever?)

Lucky

[one.zebra]

Could you do that Lucky?

I'm off to work, then out of town to visit the newlyweds and it's our 33rd anniversary today! ...and they said we'd never make it...HA...I am nothing if not stubborn....

Ok then!

Now that I've read (ok, skimmed) through the comments I'd like to propose a writing Challenge:

Write a senario in which Josef does betray (real or imagined) Mick, and what are Josef's motivatons/circumstance that would push him to do so......

Are you up to it, our wonderful fanfic writers?

Interesting idea, O.Z! We do have some upcoming challenge plans, to be announced soon, but this really should be put in the Challenge suggestion area, viewtopic.php?f=137&t=231

(And isn't it great that there are enough ideas to keep us writing fic...forever?)

Lucky

[NocturneInCMoll]

Remember too, that a lot of people were slated for the axe in season2 - Carl Davis and Sarah being the big ones (and possibly Simone if they couldn't figure out how to work around the actress' pregnancy). J after Sarah died would have been a different animal, and it's entirely possible that he would strike out in grief to make his friend hurt, too.

I never heard anything about this! I'm especially curious about Carl--what did they have planned for him? Can anyone enlighten me, s'il vous plait?

[wollstonecraft61]

It seems from the postings here that a number of people are savvy about the possible plot lines that were proposed for season 2 of our beloved ML. I had heard a couple of people at some gatherings who hinted they knew things about what was supposed to happen, but these people were very cryptic and would not divulge further on this (at the time, it was immediately after ML's cancellation, and these people did state they were not at liberty to say anything more). Those hints left me rabid for more info, but alas, I never heard anything else. Do any of you know any more about what was supposed to happen in season 2 definitively or as definitively as one can get on speculation?

[Catmoon]

Great to see this thread resurrected! Just throwing out some random thoughts...

Truthfully I just can't see the "sworn enemies" stuff that was hinted at. Wouldn't want to, since I'd hate to see their friendship damaged to that degree, for that long (something like that would take a long time to repair, if ever). But then considering some of the other things I've heard... It would just be another of the horrible ideas TPTB had about the direction of the 2nd season that would have destroyed the show. Sometimes I am glad it was cancelled. Just IMHO of course.

And speaking of the rumors, earlier we speculated that the betrayal could revolve around Josef's turning Beth (for their safety, since the Legion thing made Mick dating a human a bad idea). However, another of those 'hints' given was that Beth can't be turned. If that were the case, the betrayal wouldn't have been about that (unless they were planning on killing Beth off or having her end up like Sarah, and I doubt that). Could even be something totally different that we couldn't even imagine. But if they were planning on going back to some of the things abandoned with the original pilot, it would involve Josef and Coraline. If they were planning on going with things already in motion with the last ep, it would concern the Legion. I suppose those are the most likely, if you go by Occam's razor.

Josef is much older than Mick. His loyalties are with the vampires and he loves what he is, while Mick would turn human again in a second if he could and is more of a champion of the humans. Most of the time they are able to be best friends despite this and love each other for who they are -- but it's still a pretty big divide that could conceivably cause problems under the right circumstances. I'm definitely of the mind that Josef's "betrayal" wouldn't be something you could view in black or white terms though, like suddenly he turned into a totally evil villian foe for Mick. Sometimes it's necessary to make impossible sacrifices, for the greater good. Acts that could make some people hate you. If Josef had to choose between his friendship with Mick or the safety of the entire vampire community, how would he choose? What else could he choose?

One final thought. When you have to live many centuries hiding what you are for your survival, secrets become second nature, like breathing. I think you probably just automatically hide things rather than reveal them even just out of habit rather than necessity. The vampires in my fic series have so many secrets I'm always stumbling over them (the whole universe is basically about secrets, including some things Josef knew about Beth and kept from Mick), and their friends/SO's/etc. sometimes feel betrayed when they find out. But in the end they forgive, because they eventually understand. That's what I would have liked to see happen with Mick, if they had persued these issues.

[MoonMarg]

Remember too, that a lot of people were slated for the axe in season2 - Carl Davis and Sarah being the big ones (and possibly Simone if they couldn't figure out how to work around the actress' pregnancy). J after Sarah died would have been a different animal, and it's entirely possible that he would strike out in grief to make his friend hurt, too.

I never heard anything about this! I'm especially curious about Carl--what did they have planned for him? Can anyone enlighten me, s'il vous plait?

I could be wrong but I thought Carl was let go after episode 12. I don't think he appeared in the final 4. It was just another thing that changed the tempo of the show - no Josh, no Carl, no Maureen and no Buzzwire.

[jen]

Wollstonecraft61 wrote upthread that she would like some additional information on what might have happened in Season 2. Over on the 'No Such Thing As Vampires' Episode Discussion, I asked pretty much the same thing and the wonderful Moonmarg was gracious enough to provide some information. I think on Page 9.

Some I like, some I don't (at all) but when I come to care about the characters and what happens to them, I tend to ignore what I don't like or mentally 'fix it' I'll bet you all do the same.

Hope this helps.

[Liana]

This is an interesting discussion!
I've never heard of the betrayal in S2. Very intriguing!
I think it would have involved Beth then. IMO - Beth is the most really valuable thing in Mick's life.

Mick really knew very little about Josef. The Sleeping Beauty showed it clearly. I think there were many things Josef didn't tell Mick. The cure being one of them... It's really unbelievable that a 400 years old vamp of Josef's stature wouldn't at least heard of it! And given that Josef knew Coraline before, maybe even took the cure to escape culling?!

I've heard the rumors that Beth "can't" be turned. And also that she's part of the French royal bloodline... And that her blood was the key to the cure... This got me thinking, maybe the betrayal has something to do with it - an oath to keep Beth human, in order to have her blood for the cure?!
Another reason why I tend to think so is how Josef changed his opinion about Mick and Beth's relationship. He was against it at first. Then he even encouraged Mick. But Josef's comment in FTP "Now go do somehting about it before it's too late..." really got me thinking now. Maybe he didn't mean that if you don't hurry she'll have a new boyfriend and move on, but that she could be dead soon because of her blood?!

OR... Mick would refuse to turn Beth when she asked. Her blood being a part of the cure will put her in danger eventually. Then she would go to Josef, and he will turn her... Mick will consider it as a betrayal, I'm sure of it! But given how Josef always tried to make Mick see that there is no going back to the mortal coil, once Beth is turned Mick won't WANT to go back, I think. So I see Josef turning Beth as a way to make Mick finally embrace his nature...

Another detail - Josef was way too eager to re-turn Mick, he was kind of waiting for Mick to ask to be turned. Maybe Beth being kidnapped by Anders was a set-up to get Mick back into the fold?! As Mick said "Vamps like me might see it as a cure, others might see it as a threat...". The cure is definitely a threat to the community in the whole! Especially with the Legion watching them and one vamp suddenly turning back into human!...

One more thing... We really didn't see in ML any prove that a relationship between a sire and their fledgling is very strong and really dependent! For example, watch how it is in True Blood, where the sire has total control over the fledgling... in ML it wasn't anywhere near like that!

[wollstonecraft61]

Wow, Liana, you have some good suppositions here. I really don't have any idea where the writers were going in Season 2, but I love some of your thoughts.

[wollstonecraft61]

Wollstonecraft61 wrote upthread that she would like some additional information on what might have happened in Season 2. Over on the 'No Such Thing As Vampires' Episode Discussion, I asked pretty much the same thing and the wonderful Moonmarg was gracious enough to provide some information. I think on Page 9.

Some I like, some I don't (at all) but when I come to care about the characters and what happens to them, I tend to ignore what I don't like or mentally 'fix it' I'll bet you all do the same.

Hope this helps.

Thanks, jen. I'll go over there and look.

[Catmoon]

Maybe Beth being kidnapped by Anders was a set-up to get Mick back into the fold?! As Mick said "Vamps like me might see it as a cure, others might see it as a threat...". The cure is definitely a threat to the community in the whole! Especially with the Legion watching them and one vamp suddenly turning back into human!...

Someone wrote a story about that idea -- Josef setting Mick up to want to turn back. I also remember one where Josef was working with Anders in the rare blood market, but I'm not sure if they were the same story or different ones. Very chilling idea, but it wouldn't shock me much as I love Josef. Most of the possible actions of Josef's being discussed don't bother me because I understand him and the position he's in. I don't see things in black and white terms, so I can see both Mick and Josef's sides.

Here's a question I just thought of: If the "cure" is only temporary, why would any vamp view it as a threat? You'd think with Legion breathing down their necks they'd welcome a way to mask the truth of what they are. Hmmm... and if Beth's blood is part of the cure it would be in high demand if that happened... I doubt TPTB would be going and killing Beth off, but I suppose she could be kidnapped (again, hmm) to be used for her blood. Now that's one scenario that would bother me, Josef being involved in something like that.

What if (and this is something that I used but in another way in my own ML 'verse) Josef knew all about Beth and what she was -- before Mick ever did, or ever saved her from Coraline? So he waited and watched the situation, figuring she and her blood might come in handy some day. I think Josef has come to like Beth though, and in that situation I'd want to see him have changed his mind about any idea of harming her and want to fight on Mick's side. MIck finding out about Josef's 'prior' evil plans for Beth could be considered a betrayal in that case.

One last thing about the "cure". The Duvalls seemed very keen on keeping it a secret in the family. So if Legion started killing vampires, I could see not only a vamp vs. Legion war but also the general vamp population vs. the Duvalls. Maybe Mick would actually be on the Duvall side?! If, say, they had no intention of ever harming Beth because she was part of the family, with Josef being against the Duvalls, and that being the point of betrayal. (It would be a fight for survival, and as much as Josef loves Mick like a brother and cares for Beth, he would do anything to survive). That would be quite the plot twist!

Great thoughts, thanks for sharing them! As you can see they inspired a lot of speculation of my own!

[Liana]

Here's a question I just thought of: If the "cure" is only temporary, why would any vamp view it as a threat? You'd think with Legion breathing down their necks they'd welcome a way to mask the truth of what they are. Hmmm... and if Beth's blood is part of the cure it would be in high demand if that happened... I doubt TPTB would be going and killing Beth off, but I suppose she could be kidnapped (again, hmm) to be used for her blood. Now that's one scenario that would bother me, Josef being involved in something like that.

Well, in the hospital Coraline naturally re-turned, I assumed after she died as human. The vampire was always there, supressed by the cure. So really it isn't a cure at all, it's only a mask to allow a vampire appear human. As for the cure being a threat... I think, it would be much easier to take down a vamp once he's under the cure - he has no healing ability, no inhuman strength, no heightened senses... So the cure is a threat when the Legion has the name of a particular vamp in the list.
On the other hand, once the Legion gets the cure, vamps won't have it to escape them. Even the Duvalls would be somewhat vulnerable without the cure.

I too, think Josef came to like Beth and respect her, especially after Dean Foster.