Season 2 speculation - would Josef betray Mick?

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Re: Season 2 speculation - would Josef betray Mick?

Post by nutmegger911 »

Lots of great discussion here.

Grace - You beat me to it. There are real betrayals and then there are perceived betrayals. The question is what is the greater good and who gets to decide? The fact that each of us has our own values (not simply morals, but values) and will see the greater good from our perspective leaves this wide open. Also, we don't see our own blind spots. Think about it. How often do folks state their opinions and assumptions as fact? How often do folks declare a given motive when they don't even know the situation, never mind the hearts of the players? You see it in everything, ranging from news reports on the actions of world leaders to forum posts as to why readers don't leave comments on stories (and don't even get me going on celebrity rags).

Anyway, back to the matter at hand. I wish I had Sam's access to that facial recognition software because I'm convinced that I saw Josef in the scene in France. Not that would p*ss Mick off. Even so, is it a betrayal, a conflict of interest, or an old vamp who gets lonely trying to navigate the waters between Scylla and Charibdus (probably spelled wrong)? That may depend on who's shoes you are wearing.
wpgrace wrote:Oh I can see Josef betraying Mick... at least in Mick's eyes... sometimes betrayal is in the eyes of the beholder. Since Josef and Mick had different perspectives of morality sometimes, I can so see Josef doing the practical thing and Mick seeing it as a morally wrong, betrayal, whatever.

And I have no clue what the writers had in mind, but it could be something Josef had already done, that comes to light, that he never confessed to Mick... for practical purposes only... and that makes Mick feel betrayed, or lied to...

I think if Josef DID do something, and Mick SAW it as betrayal, it would HAVE to revolve around either Beth, Cora, or the Cure... those are the keys to Mick's own heart. I think anything else Josef did, like start WWIII for speculative profit, Mick would get over...
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Re: Season 2 speculation - would Josef betray Mick?

Post by bluedahlia3 »

Oh there are tons of ways Mick could see betrayal. Mick gets so full of angst that grass growing could set him off. And Josef and Beth scheming to kill the photographer. Huge! Sometimes I get stuck in Micks view of Beth as 'blonde, sunshine, butter wouldn't melt in her mouth' as Em puts it. She's so human angel 'white sugar' that she's hard to take. I think had we had season two and the writers could have had a blast making her a little bit less of a nun and explore more of the devil. Sounds like a great topic for more fic..... :devil:
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Re: Season 2 speculation - would Josef betray Mick?

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bluedahlia3 wrote:Oh there are tons of ways Mick could see betrayal. Mick gets so full of angst that grass growing could set him off. And Josef and Beth scheming to kill the photographer. Huge! Sometimes I get stuck in Micks view of Beth as 'blonde, sunshine, butter wouldn't melt in her mouth' as Em puts it. She's so human angel 'white sugar' that she's hard to take. I think had we had season two and the writers could have had a blast making her a little bit less of a nun and explore more of the devil. Sounds like a great topic for more fic..... :devil:
Ah, but she never was a "little nun." Like all the characters on the show, she's human, multifaceted, and viewed by others through only the facet they choose to see. The real storytelling excitement comes when something interferes with one character's single-faceted view of another. Folks often find it really threatening when their view of the world (or the peeps in it) is challenged. That's where the story gets interesting. (IMHO)
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Re: Season 2 speculation - would Josef betray Mick?

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nutmegger911 wrote:
bluedahlia3 wrote:Oh there are tons of ways Mick could see betrayal. Mick gets so full of angst that grass growing could set him off. And Josef and Beth scheming to kill the photographer. Huge! Sometimes I get stuck in Micks view of Beth as 'blonde, sunshine, butter wouldn't melt in her mouth' as Em puts it. She's so human angel 'white sugar' that she's hard to take. I think had we had season two and the writers could have had a blast making her a little bit less of a nun and explore more of the devil. Sounds like a great topic for more fic..... :devil:
Ah, but she never was a "little nun." Like all the characters on the show, she's human, multifaceted, and viewed by others through only the facet they choose to see. The real storytelling excitement comes when something interferes with one character's single-faceted view of another. Folks often find it really threatening when their view of the world (or the peeps in it) is challenged. That's where the story gets interesting. (IMHO)


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Re: Season 2 speculation - would Josef betray Mick?

Post by Catmoon »

bluedahlia3 wrote:Oh there are tons of ways Mick could see betrayal. Mick gets so full of angst that grass growing could set him off. And Josef and Beth scheming to kill the photographer. Huge! Sometimes I get stuck in Micks view of Beth as 'blonde, sunshine, butter wouldn't melt in her mouth' as Em puts it. She's so human angel 'white sugar' that she's hard to take. I think had we had season two and the writers could have had a blast making her a little bit less of a nun and explore more of the devil. Sounds like a great topic for more fic..... :devil:
I think the writers gave us many hints that she wasn't an angel. We also discussed "dark Beth" in the coffee house so I'm repeating myself here a bit. Staking Coraline in a fit of rage, being jealous of her and Mick when she had no right to be, putting that hit on Dean, unfairly juggling two men instead of making a choice like she should have... Mick is the main character and we tend to see things from his pov, so we find ourselves seeing Beth as he sees her. I could give more examples of Beth's anti-angel tendencies, but I have to dash off to work now. ;)
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Re: Season 2 speculation - would Josef betray Mick?

Post by bluedahlia3 »

It's very possible I saw Beth thru Mick's eyes and didn't look further. Beth is my least favorite character because I didn't see the dark side. To me she is very flat, to use a literary term. I did like the early Beth. Hated Coraline when she was first introduced. Now my favorites to write are Cora and Mick. I love Josef but that seems to be a girl crush...go figure. I think exploring Beth, both the dark and light sides would be a good excerise for me. I have loved reading everybodies comments about her. Luxe, francis and darkstarrising have given me really good insight into our little Beth. :evillaugh: It's nice to find a fresh angle to explore.
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Re: Season 2 speculation - would Josef betray Mick?

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bluedahlia3 wrote:It's very possible I saw Beth thru Mick's eyes and didn't look further. Beth is my least favorite character because I didn't see the dark side. To me she is very flat, to use a literary term. I did like the early Beth. Hated Coraline when she was first introduced. Now my favorites to write are Cora and Mick. I love Josef but that seems to be a girl crush...go figure. I think exploring Beth, both the dark and light sides would be a good excerise for me. I have loved reading everybodies comments about her. Luxe, francis and darkstarrising have given me really good insight into our little Beth. :evillaugh: It's nice to find a fresh angle to explore.

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Re: Season 2 speculation - would Josef betray Mick?

Post by eris »

Catmoon wrote: Just a few random thoughts:

Mick does NOT want to have Josef Kostan for an enemy. Josef is the most powerful vamp in L.A., Mick wouldn't stand a chance. He'd have to leave town.

Is he though? The vampire hierarchy was never established or developed on ML, only in fanfiction. We know J's the richest vamp, not necessarily the most powerful. If he was a big wig, Logan would have said that rather than mentioning his monetary status.

It would take a LOT to break the connection between the boys - especially after the re-turning. Something like trading a certain intrepid former reporter for the safety of Mick or the vampire community as a whole. If the writers had gone ahead with their "multi-strain" idea, then Beth wouldn't have been able to be turned and her blood would have conceivably been an anti-vampire weapon (the way I wrote her in Eclipse, if anyone remembers that one - it was based on the writers' notes for season 2).

Remember too, that a lot of people were slated for the axe in season2 - Carl Davis and Sarah being the big ones (and possibly Simone if they couldn't figure out how to work around the actress' pregnancy). J after Sarah died would have been a different animal, and it's entirely possible that he would strike out in grief to make his friend hurt, too.
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Re: Season 2 speculation - would Josef betray Mick?

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Interesting....I had heard that Sarah was going to die, but not Carl....

You're right, though, there is a lot binding Mick and Josef together....it would take something earth shattering to destroy their friendship. Now that you mention it, the series was a bit ambivalent about the hierarchy....some of us have assumed money meant power....
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Re: Season 2 speculation - would Josef betray Mick?

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eris wrote:The vampire hierarchy was never established or developed on ML, only in fanfiction. We know J's the richest vamp, not necessarily the most powerful. If he was a big wig, Logan would have said that rather than mentioning his monetary status.
True, Eris... The only thing I remember actually being said about power when it comes to vamps was Josef warning Mick about Lola "With that kind of age comes power." It seemed to hint at physical power, or possibly better honed vamp abilities, but was not specific. Of course, over 500 years natural selection has really got to be a b*tch. My guess it the survivors on that level would probably have (1) amassed quite a war chest; (2) really understood history (talk about perspective); (3) actually learned every trick in the book. But most importantly, they would have to be resiliant. Evolution is about being able to survive the in current conditions. As the conditions change the vamp must adjust to survive. (IMHO)
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Re: Season 2 speculation - would Josef betray Mick?

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Would Josef betray Mick?

We were treated to a lot of scenes demonstrating the depth of the friendship. They said that they never gave each other advice - but they did--all the time. They were accepting of each others choices--but they weren't really. Each demonstrated a willingness to tell the other person the truth, whether they wanted to hear it or not. If hurting the others' feelings would help them, they 'let the other person have it'. In short, genuinely valued the interests of the other. Could there be a time when they wouldn't have each others backs? Maybe, but they would not get there easily. There is a LOT of history there. We may not know the details of it, but we see the evidence of it in hard won trust. When Josef was 'killed' in Sleeping Beauty, who did he turn to for help? Mick. When Mick was about to take on Dr. Anders and company as a human to rescue Beth, Josef gave him a demonstration of why it was a bad idea and turned Mick back into a vampire. I could go on and on--so could all of you.

I totally agree that they would have had disagreements and even arguments in a second season. Josef met Coraline in New York during Lincoln's presidency. She introduced Mick and Josef after Mick was turned(?) Mick became a private investigator during the years of his friendship with Josef. You'd think that fifty years is plenty of time to ferret out whatever is in Josef's closets, but maybe he just never looked. I have sometimes wondered why Mick didn't question Josef more intently but just seemed to accept at face value what he friend said. They had history--I get that--and sometimes you don't press a friend on issues as hard as a standard acqaintenance.

I think I first heard that line about 'keep your friends close and your enemies closer' in the Godfather. If Mick thought that Josef had been hidng informaton or controlling Mick in some way for Josef's own reasons to Mick's detriment, this could cause a ripple or two in the calm waters.

Of course, anything involving Beth.

But as Josef said about something else, 'Forever is a long time' I want them to be friends. (stomps foot in mini tantrum) The onscreen chemistry between Alex O'Laughlin and Jason Doering is amazing. The Powers that Be in Moonlight obviously put a lot of time and effort into it. As was said on another thread, we need a certain amount of conflict adds to the interest.

Sorry. I'm rambling. Shutting up now.

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Re: Season 2 speculation - would Josef betray Mick?

Post by tucutecats »

I think the bond that Joseph and Mick have is too strong to be broken. No matter what happened nothing could come between them. Jos would never choose Beth over his brother. Just my opinion.
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Re: Season 2 speculation - would Josef betray Mick?

Post by starbucksjunkie »

Mick is 85. Josef is 400. Josef has seen a lot of good friends come and go. I suspect he might have made some of them go.

With that kind of age comes cynicism. As much as I love the friendship between them, and as much as I know it means the world to Mick, I suspect it doesn't to Josef. He's too ruthless and would do whatever it took, including hurting Mick or worse, if he thought that was what the situation called for.

I always thought Jason played Josef with a boyish exuberance which belied Josef's true nature. I can totally see Mick and Josef becoming enemies over things Josef would have done. Particularly, as several have pointed out, if it involved Beth.

Despite his world weariness, Mick has a naivete to him that is appealing to me. He still, in spite of himself, expects the best of the people he loves. That's how he wound up marrying a vampire. And I think he could be taken in by Josef and lulled into thinking that Josef is as moral as he, Mick is, even when it comes to his friends. And that's what Josef would count on to betray him
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Re: Season 2 speculation - would Josef betray Mick?

Post by GuardianAngel »

I'm loving this discussion.

I do see Josef as cynical and, at times, ruthless. But I don't know if he would go so far as to finish Mick or hurt him severely. For all his show of being a cut-throat he doesn't like to do the dirty work himself. At times, he even has Mick do it for him. And there is a wealth of vulnerability there. We saw it with Sara. We saw it again when Mick killed Lola.

It's my belief that Josef new about the Cure and knows more about Coraline and her family that he's told Mick. He may, at times, even been in bed with them. But I do think he tried his hardest to get Mick from getting entangled in it and I think Josef did it with the best intentions on Mick's behalf.

Also, Josef is lonely and I don't think he's had many friends like Mick. Someone who truly cares for him with no strings attached. I don't think he'd give up on that easily. But I don't think Josef is above lying or twisting things to his advantage. If Beth got in the way I think he's arrange an accident. I don't think he'd particularly relish having to do it but it wouldn't give him any sleepless days either.
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Re: Season 2 speculation - would Josef betray Mick?

Post by librarian_7 »

Sometimes we love those who believe us to be better than we are, and inspire us to be better...perhaps for Josef, Mick fills that role. He makes Josef want to be less ruthless, perhaps.

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