Season 2 speculation - would Josef betray Mick?

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nutmegger911
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Re: Season 2 speculation - would Josef betray Mick?

Post by nutmegger911 »

Catmoon wrote:Here's a question I just thought of: If the "cure" is only temporary, why would any vamp view it as a threat? You'd think with Legion breathing down their necks they'd welcome a way to mask the truth of what they are. Hmmm... and if Beth's blood is part of the cure it would be in high demand if that happened... I doubt TPTB would be going and killing Beth off, but I suppose she could be kidnapped (again, hmm) to be used for her blood. Now that's one scenario that would bother me, Josef being involved in something like that.

One last thing about the "cure". The Duvalls seemed very keen on keeping it a secret in the family. So if Legion started killing vampires, I could see not only a vamp vs. Legion war but also the general vamp population vs. the Duvalls. Maybe Mick would actually be on the Duvall side?! :eek2: If, say, they had no intention of ever harming Beth because she was part of the family, with Josef being against the Duvalls, and that being the point of betrayal. (It would be a fight for survival, and as much as Josef loves Mick like a brother and cares for Beth, he would do anything to survive). That would be quite the plot twist!

Great thoughts, thanks for sharing them! As you can see they inspired a lot of speculation of my own! ;)
I don't think vamps saw the cure as a threat. When Mick was getting Coraline's blood tested he did not know that the cure was temporary. He thought he had found the holy grail - permanent return to mortality. If you happen to like being immortal, mortality is a death sentence, and thus a threat. Had Mick known the cure was temporary it would likely have been a different conversation. (Probably more like "let's get this tested to see if we can find a way to make it permanent.")

As far as the DuValls keeping the cure a secret. That struck me as survival. If you have a trump card you certainly don't tell your enemy. Also, The at least one of the original ingredients was a now extinct plant. It seemed that Lance's anger was more that Coraline was wasting such a precious and rare substance on a fool's errand. He said they had already tried to recreate it and that it didn't work. Just a thought (or two :snicker: )
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Re: Season 2 speculation - would Josef betray Mick?

Post by jen »

The existence of the cure is fascinatng to me for many reasons. For one, there was a near absolute absence of evidence that vampires sought any answers to anything in science but the cure is evidence that this was not so.

True, in the third episode, Dr. Feelgood, we have the existence of the accidental sire rocket scientist and the accidentally turned rogue vampire, who seemed to be a good husband and dedicated physician prior to being he second victim of the hit and run. But the existence of the cure is a tantilizing piece of evidence that even in the middle ages, they were able to develope a compound derived from local plants that impacted upon vampirism. That is huge.

The fact that Cynthia Xavier Davis had a degree in biochemistry is also huge. Coraline appeared to be overseeing medical research when Lance showed up to reclaim the cure and 'punish' her. If we take that event and the story behind it at face value and not as a mind game, it begs the question, 'what else is out there that we could have heard about in a second season?'

Into this, we drop the idea I heard not long ago on the boards about the Legion, and werewolves.

In the first season, Beth came to see that the rules of life were not what she previously thought they were. Vampires were real. In the second season, Mick could face a similar journey as he learned that there were creatures (werewolves) with society, rules, history and culture that he didn't know about. Why do I think that Josef would have denied that these things existed, just as he denied any prior knowledge of the cure, only to have it revealed that he knew about it all along.

All fascinating.

Just sayin'

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Re: Season 2 speculation - would Josef betray Mick?

Post by Catmoon »

jen wrote:In the first season, Beth came to see that the rules of life were not what she previously thought they were. Vampires were real. In the second season, Mick could face a similar journey as he learned that there were creatures (werewolves) with society, rules, history and culture that he didn't know about. Why do I think that Josef would have denied that these things existed, just as he denied any prior knowledge of the cure, only to have it revealed that he knew about it all along.

All fascinating.
I agree. (Well, almost totally). I've always maintained that even though Mick is made out to appear the expert on being a vampire (it's his pov we see everything from, him we and Beth learn everything from, he's the hero), he's just a baby yet and probably has no clue about a lot of stuff. There is also the appearance that Josef and Mick are on a much closer level than they are. The second season could have highlighted the huge difference in their ages that sometimes doesn't seem so when Mick's running to his best buddy going on about having discovered about a "cure" and Josef playing all dumb.
:snicker: Josef is way too old and experienced to not know about these things. I hate the idea of werewolves though, I think it's stupid and wouldn't have wanted to see it in the show. To me it would have been stretching the limits of believable drama and chucking it all for pure fantasy, which ML wasn't about in the beginning. Just IMHO. Then again, I thought vampires were pretty lame too, before Mick came along.
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Re: Season 2 speculation - would Josef betray Mick?

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Catmoon wrote: Josef is way too old and experienced to not know about these things. I hate the idea of werewolves though, I think it's stupid and wouldn't have wanted to see it in the show. To me it would have been stretching the limits of believable drama and chucking it all for pure fantasy, which ML wasn't about in the beginning. Just IMHO. Then again, I thought vampires were pretty lame too, before Mick came along.
I agree, Josef must have known about the cure all along. It's unbelievable if he didn't. I even think he tried it himself. He was just too eager to convince Mick that there is no cure.
Maybe there are more secrets around the cure, than the cure itself represents?
I mean, how did Lance's hand regenerate? Maybe the same way Josef survived the bombing in his office?!
Maybe the cure gives some more abilities to the vamp after it wears off, or lingering effects of humanity still remain?! Vamps supposed to turn into ashes in fire, humans only get burns from fire, which heal with time. But with have quick healing vamp abilities, it kind of makes sense how Lance healed from fire. (How Coraline and Josef survived the fire?!)
Or maybe I'm just overthinking it and it's as simple as the older the vamp, the more abilities he gains over time?! :laugh:

I also hated the idea of werewolves in ML. The main thing I love about ML is its realism.
It made me almost believe vamps walk among us. :giggle:
They sleep in freezers, which is a very fresh idea and so believable why they have to.
They also can go for groceries at local blood bank or morgue. Which is so cool and 21 century!
Our vamps are the best ever!!! Because ML vampire mythology is so realistic.
I never was a fan of the genre, but ML captured my heart.
I heart vampires now. Two in particular, very much! :heart:

I remember in one of the interviews Alex said about the second season that now Mick belonged to two old bloodlines and they were going to see how that will play out...
But in Click when Mick joked about Josef being his step-sire now, Josef denied the connection, saying he just re-turned him. Why do you think Josef recanted Mick?!
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Re: Season 2 speculation - would Josef betray Mick?

Post by NocturneInCMoll »

Liana wrote: Why do you think Josef recanted Mick?!
Probably because he didn't want to be called "Dad". :biggrin:
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Re: Season 2 speculation - would Josef betray Mick?

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My willingness to be open to the werewolves is partly rooted in how I came to accept vampires living in our midst.

I was never a fan of the genre prior to Moonlight, but the creators of Moonlight did a superb job of making them plausible and even sympathetic and heroic at times.

In for a penny, in for a pound.

Sort of.

Anyway, that's my take on it.

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Re: Season 2 speculation - would Josef betray Mick?

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jen wrote:My willingness to be open to the werewolves is partly rooted in how I came to accept vampires living in our midst.

I was never a fan of the genre prior to Moonlight, but the creators of Moonlight did a superb job of making them plausible and even sympathetic and heroic at times.

In for a penny, in for a pound.

Sort of.

Anyway, that's my take on it.

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Yeah, it's possible they could have won me over. On the other hand... I think it was probably Trevor and Ron who were responsible for me coming to like vamps; by the time the show was cancelled they were gone and it was other people who were in charge and the direction the show was going in was quite different from their vision. So, :dunno:
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Re: Season 2 speculation - would Josef betray Mick?

Post by NightAir »

I just wish we had had the chance to see it and then decide.
The fact that both Alex and David Blue were really excited about the second season makes me think it would have been handled well, whatever they had in mind.
Though I kinda like werewolves, I would definitely have preferred none in the ML world.
Getting back to the original question; I don't think that Josef would have betrayed Mick in any unforgivable way. A profound difference in prospective (due to age and experience) could make Mick misconstrue certain actions taken by Josef. But, any true breach between the characters would have changed the story and I think their relationship was just as important a part of the story as Mick and Beth's. (Or Mick and Coraline's.) The drama would have been in seeing the betrayal through Mick's eyes and then the gradual reconciliation.
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Re: Season 2 speculation - would Josef betray Mick?

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NightAir wrote:I just wish we had had the chance to see it and then decide.
The fact that both Alex and David Blue were really excited about the second season makes me think it would have been handled well, whatever they had in mind.
Though I kinda like werewolves, I would definitely have preferred none in the ML world.
Getting back to the original question; I don't think that Josef would have betrayed Mick in any unforgivable way. A profound difference in prospective (due to age and experience) could make Mick misconstrue certain actions taken by Josef. But, any true breach between the characters would have changed the story and I think their relationship was just as important a part of the story as Mick and Beth's. (Or Mick and Coraline's.) The drama would have been in seeing the betrayal through Mick's eyes and then the gradual reconciliation.
Now that I could see.
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Re: Season 2 speculation - would Josef betray Mick?

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The idea of Josef and Mick becoming absolute sworn enemies in Season 2, never worked for me (regardless of my shipper preference). Out of all the characters on the show, Josef and Mick are the ones that have the closest relationship. They've been best friends for at least 50 years. They're relaxed and comfortable with one another, they appear to show sides of themselves around one another that they probably don't allow other people to see that much (especially Josef). It is inconceivable to me that such a strong friendship, that has developed over all those years, would suddenly go pear shaped to the point that they became total enemies. The only scenario I could even remotely see that working in would be if Josef did something enormously bad like killed Beth, or had Beth kidnapped and tortured, or something else to that sort of extreme. And even then I couldn't see the writers pulling it off.

I think what others have said is more correct. A perceived betrayal, followed by a gradual reconcilliation. I'm sure over the years they've been friends they've probably had a few bust-ups. A friendship that close, and that longstanding is always going to have its conflicts every so often.
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Re: Season 2 speculation - would Josef betray Mick?

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Vampire Armageddon - Josef trades Beth to the Duvalls for the "cure" to keep the LA vamps (or himself/Sarah safe. That would do it. I think if Josef killed Coraline, that would do it to a degree.

Then on Mick's end, he'd have to do something to Sarah (they said she was going to die...) or betray the "nation" as a whole. Maybe he finally screwed up royally and vamped on national TV.

It would have to be A - an extreme circumstance or B - a ruse. I come closer to thinking B as a set-up for another season. The resolution to the "conflict" would be in the 2nd season finale and then segue into a new storyline for season 3. They'd definitely pretend to be enemies before they became enemies.
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Re: Season 2 speculation - would Josef betray Mick?

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Ok, this isn't the original interview I saw regarding JD's comments on the Josef/Mick betrayal, it goes into a bit more detail than the one I read. Unless it was the same one that had been reprinted, and misquoted/taken out of context.

Anyway, it's interesting what JD has to say about the idea.

Going past episode 12, do you know anything about what your character is expected to see?

JD: It's pretty much in the formulistic stages so far, with regard to that. Obviously, there's no scripts written or we'd be trying to shoot them. But we have ideas of possible stuff and it's pretty cool. The one thing I heard is basically a betrayal of Josef against Mick. Something he's been telling him all along is not true, and it's very important to Mick. So I think that'll kind of lead to some really cool stuff. Yeah, there's some great stuff coming up you guys, I'm so excited for you to see it. Particularly, in episode 11, I think you're going to fall in love with Sophia (Myles) man, she's just unreal this girl.

(Following on Josef betraying Mick.) Would you enjoy playing enemies with Mick for a while?

JD: Oh absolutely, I'm always kind of in favor of changing things around. You can always come back. But yeah I think that would be great. (Mick) can stand up to the best of them, so I'd love to see him tear me a new one.

A lot of the scenes that people have really responded to have been ones where there is real male camaraderie going on. Is there going to be more of that male bonding coming up? Or is that going to be fractured to the point that it won't exist anymore?

JD: No, I hope it never gets to that, because that's a big part of who these guys are. You know a big part of why I think Josef is in the storyline at all is because he's somewhat of a mentor, a safe person that Mick can ask things about or get information or ask about certain experiences that he's going through and how they relate to Josef's knowledge and experience of the same situation maybe earlier. I hope not, because I love those scenes, I enjoy them the most too. A lot of that banter back and forth. Hopefully, we'll get a lot more. I'm right with you on that one.
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Re: Season 2 speculation - would Josef betray Mick?

Post by eris »

Emerald wrote:The one thing I heard is basically a betrayal of Josef against Mick. Something he's been telling him all along is not true, and it's very important to Mick.
Josef did not meet Coraline in NY when Lincoln was president; he was Coraline's sire... told ya so :biggrin:
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Re: Season 2 speculation - would Josef betray Mick?

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eris wrote:Vampire Armageddon - Josef trades Beth to the Duvalls for the "cure" to keep the LA vamps (or himself/Sarah safe. That would do it. I think if Josef killed Coraline, that would do it to a degree.
Trading Beth for the "cure" that is a brilliant "betrayal" idea.
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Re: Season 2 speculation - would Josef betray Mick?

Post by Catmoon »

Emerald wrote:Ok, this isn't the original interview I saw regarding JD's comments on the Josef/Mick betrayal, it goes into a bit more detail than the one I read. Unless it was the same one that had been reprinted, and misquoted/taken out of context.

Anyway, it's interesting what JD has to say about the idea.

Going past episode 12, do you know anything about what your character is expected to see?

JD: It's pretty much in the formulistic stages so far, with regard to that. Obviously, there's no scripts written or we'd be trying to shoot them. But we have ideas of possible stuff and it's pretty cool. The one thing I heard is basically a betrayal of Josef against Mick. Something he's been telling him all along is not true, and it's very important to Mick.
Very important to Mick... Hmm, sounds to me like it could definitely be that there is a real and permanent cure for vampirism. I don't know why I didn't think of that, since it's something I've speculated on for two years now. I would have had to freak out had ML continued and that been the case, since it's the basis of my HB series. :snicker:

Thanks for posting the interview bits!
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