Page 2 of 4

Re: Josef & Sarah (impartial discussion)

PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 9:58 pm
by nutmegger911
eris wrote:I think that J/S might be a production of his own mind and memory. Yes, of course he thought enough of her to turn her, BUT they were together less than a year... basically puppy love for a life as long as J's. He cared for her and daydreamed about her FIFTY times longer than he actually knew her. That's plenty of time to concoct a few unrealistic fantasies.

There had to be something he saw in her, and I'm sure her knowing what he was and not caring was a relief, but for all we know he could have spent the last five decades convincing himself he loved a woman he seduced to spite her father.


(*ducks and runs from flying tomatoes... Lilly is wicked accurate with those things*)

Eris, Please write that story. Pleeeeeease!

Re: Josef & Sarah (impartial discussion)

PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 11:57 pm
by Catmoon
Thanks for all the great responses! I went to bed after I posted and now I'm getting ready for work, but I'm definitely going to read them again and let them purcolate in my brain for a bit. Just some quick thoughts.

Of course the whole thing is subject to interpertation and everyone has their own views of who Sarah was and their relationship, no question. Well, except for me and that's the problem, I can't get a handle on her and I need to. Thanks to those who pointed out that she had to be something special for Josef to fall for her. That seems like it must be true. VampFan5 also pointed out, very astutely, that when someone dies (or in this case in a coma) we tend to remember only the good and put them on a pedestal. I've seen that phenomena myself. Eris -- what an evil and tragic idea! :twisted:

It's also true that love can come over you like a fever, and make no sense whatsoever. Cupid's arrow can snare two people who have nothing in common and wouldn't seem like each other's type.

Any way you look at it the situation is tragic, and I'm trying to craft Josef's response to it, but keeps going off the deep end on me. :cry:

Re: Josef & Sarah (impartial discussion)

PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 5:48 am
by greenleaf9
I'm with Lilly 100%.

I've never thought the cores of Josef's personality were hedonistic or self-absorbed...as Lilly says, I see those as shields he puts up to prevent others from getting close to him.

I mean, he has to be a good person...otherwise, why the heck would Mick be friends with him?

Re: Josef & Sarah (impartial discussion)

PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 5:49 am
by librarian_7
All I can add, is that if I thought the hedonistic party boy were all there was to Josef, I don't think I'd have been able to write all that fic about him.

Lucky

Re: Josef & Sarah (impartial discussion)

PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:35 pm
by cassysj
Carisa ITT wrote:
All in all the Sarah/Charles relationship was one of the more intriguing parts of the series (to me), including how it paralleled the MickBeth relationship at the time Josef was aware of it - and that was what it was intended to do in the episode. Too bad we didn't get to see more of it. One last thing: Given that Josef kept Sarah a secret for 50 years, I do find it highly improbable that he would name a major sports venue in the college world for her. Memorial or not, that just is too great a risk for their secrecy and paranoid Josef simply would not play with fire like that.


That bothered me so much, that he named the venue for her. I felt that was totally OC for him. I'm wondering if it was originally written that way(anticipating renewal) to try to show Josef moving on i.e. Simone. Simone is no Sarah in my opinion and it didn't work for me.

Re: Josef & Sarah (impartial discussion)

PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:11 pm
by francis
cassysj wrote:
Carisa ITT wrote:
All in all the Sarah/Charles relationship was one of the more intriguing parts of the series (to me), including how it paralleled the MickBeth relationship at the time Josef was aware of it - and that was what it was intended to do in the episode. Too bad we didn't get to see more of it. One last thing: Given that Josef kept Sarah a secret for 50 years, I do find it highly improbable that he would name a major sports venue in the college world for her. Memorial or not, that just is too great a risk for their secrecy and paranoid Josef simply would not play with fire like that.


That bothered me so much, that he named the venue for her. I felt that was totally OC for him. I'm wondering if it was originally written that way(anticipating renewal) to try to show Josef moving on i.e. Simone. Simone is no Sarah in my opinion and it didn't work for me.


I agree with both. In fact I have a headache from nodding so much.
Someone would have asked who Sarah Whitley was, and asked a question what Josef's relationship was to a girl who vanished 50 years ago in another town. Why would you name a sports arena for her?
Maybe the announcement of the name was what made Ralf Martan find Josef in the first place (Sleeping Beauty).
But it just makes no sense like this.

And I did see no trace of chemistry for Josef and Simone. In fact, that he shares her so easily and playfully with Mick shows that he isn't committed to her at all. In fanfic, he is in knots about sharing an exclusive, and that's how it should be. Sharing something like this is incredibly intimate. How could he?
And he leaves her alone in the interrogation, worrying about not exposing him, instead of barging in and giving her an alibi. What would it hurt? He was exposed enough just by being there, even Mr. Paranoia had no excuse to back out of this.

Re: Josef & Sarah (impartial discussion)

PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:21 pm
by Josefismysire
francis wrote:
cassysj wrote:
Carisa ITT wrote:
All in all the Sarah/Charles relationship was one of the more intriguing parts of the series (to me), including how it paralleled the MickBeth relationship at the time Josef was aware of it - and that was what it was intended to do in the episode. Too bad we didn't get to see more of it. One last thing: Given that Josef kept Sarah a secret for 50 years, I do find it highly improbable that he would name a major sports venue in the college world for her. Memorial or not, that just is too great a risk for their secrecy and paranoid Josef simply would not play with fire like that.


That bothered me so much, that he named the venue for her. I felt that was totally OC for him. I'm wondering if it was originally written that way(anticipating renewal) to try to show Josef moving on i.e. Simone. Simone is no Sarah in my opinion and it didn't work for me.


I agree with both. In fact I have a headache from nodding so much.
Someone would have asked who Sarah Whitley was, and asked a question what Josef's relationship was to a girl who vanished 50 years ago in another town. Why would you name a sports arena for her?
Maybe the announcement of the name was what made Ralf Martan find Josef in the first place (Sleeping Beauty).
But it just makes no sense like this.

And I did see no trace of chemistry for Josef and Simone. In fact, that he shares her so easily and playfully with Mick shows that he isn't committed to her at all. In fanfic, he is in knots about sharing an exclusive, and that's how it should be. Sharing something like this is incredibly intimate. How could he?
And he leaves her alone in the interrogation, worrying about not exposing him, instead of barging in and giving her an alibi. What would it hurt? He was exposed enough just by being there, even Mr. Paranoia had no excuse to back out of this.


Absolutely spot on observations, francis et al. I never liked the Sarah Whitley reference in Sonata either...all I could figure is that the writers were trying to bring things full circle and to incorporate as much of previous references as possible..trying to give us closure..knowing that renewal was iffy at best.

Surprise! I found Josef to be the most complex, intriguing character on the show. Yes, Mick had a past and had his secrets, but most of his character was still inherently "human"....he wasn't even 100 years old yet..still a baby by vampire standards. And, Beth..she was what? 26-28 years old..how much baggage could she possibly have? With both of them, what you see is what you get...

Ahh, but, then there's Josef..a paradox wrapped in an enigma. So many layers of personality..so much time elapsed..so much pain, so much pleasure in his long, long life. That's where we really got cheated...finding out what reallllly made Josef tick. Sarah was just a small part of the whole, imo. A blip on the time continuum. And, Simone? bahhhh! No chemistry. Freshies come and go... ;)

Re: Josef & Sarah (impartial discussion)

PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 5:05 pm
by greenleaf9
ITA agree...naming the stadium after Sarah was so OOC for Josef.

and bleh Simone. She seems a nice enough woman...but they had zero chemistry...and Josef's actions towards her did not suggest that of a vamp in love. He even said, "Forget Simone" in Mick's apartment after the murder...He also told Beth that Simone, "wasn't his girlfriend" and to Mick and Beth, "We're not exclusive." I think he just thinks of Simone as a freshie with benefits. ;)

Re: Josef & Sarah (impartial discussion)

PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 5:58 pm
by librarian_7
This may really shock people, but in defense of Simone...

I think she was displaying classic signs of a freshie more into her vamp, than he was into her. It was clear he enjoyed her company, but no, I don't think she was terribly important to him. On the other hand, she was willing to go through quite a bit of hassle and grief to protect his secret.

And I think it's rather telling that Mick was worried Josef had somehow disposed of her when the bail hearing for Emma didn't go well...that Simone seemed frightened of Josef.

Lucky

Re: Josef & Sarah (impartial discussion)

PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:19 pm
by cassysj
librarian_7 wrote:This may really shock people, but in defense of Simone...

I think she was displaying classic signs of a freshie more into her vamp, than he was into her. It was clear he enjoyed her company, but no, I don't think she was terribly important to him. On the other hand, she was willing to go through quite a bit of hassle and grief to protect his secret.

And I think it's rather telling that Mick was worried Josef had somehow disposed of her when the bail hearing for Emma didn't go well...that Simone seemed frightened of Josef.

Lucky


Oh, I think that was very telling as well. I agree with your assessment, I just didn't love Simone as a character

Re: Josef & Sarah (impartial discussion)

PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:23 pm
by Lilly
Simone and Josef were "cute" together, but there were no sparks there. I think she was a pleasant diversion for him -- not much more.

I'm also in complete agreement about the naming of the stadium. Josef would never have compromised his secret and jeopardized the entire community that way. It was pointless.

Re: Josef & Sarah (impartial discussion)

PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:27 pm
by Carisa ITT
librarian_7 wrote:This may really shock people, but in defense of Simone...

I think she was displaying classic signs of a freshie more into her vamp, than he was into her. It was clear he enjoyed her company, but no, I don't think she was terribly important to him. On the other hand, she was willing to go through quite a bit of hassle and grief to protect his secret.

And I think it's rather telling that Mick was worried Josef had somehow disposed of her when the bail hearing for Emma didn't go well...that Simone seemed frightened of Josef.

Lucky


That sounds completely spot on!

Aside from the writing of the episode which was uneven at best - not surprising as the writers had no experience to speak of according to imdbpro.com, it appears that production was a bit thrown by the fact that the actress they hired turned out to be visibly pregnant (though how they didn't catch that at casting is beyond me. The turnaround in those things is so fast; just a few days). They probably were trying so hard to shoot around the pregnant belly that anything else got lost along the way.

Re: Josef & Sarah (impartial discussion)

PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:29 pm
by eris
librarian_7 wrote:This may really shock people, but in defense of Simone...

I think she was displaying classic signs of a freshie more into her vamp, than he was into her. It was clear he enjoyed her company, but no, I don't think she was terribly important to him. On the other hand, she was willing to go through quite a bit of hassle and grief to protect his secret.

And I think it's rather telling that Mick was worried Josef had somehow disposed of her when the bail hearing for Emma didn't go well...that Simone seemed frightened of Josef.

Lucky



I have to agree. The scene between Josef and Mick is along these lines, too. When Josef talks about Simone's desire to maybe not be human, it's more like a joke.

Re: Josef & Sarah (impartial discussion)

PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:36 pm
by one.zebra
Hmm, and hmm, and hmm,,,

no way I can comment on everyones posts..

...but Francis, I burst out laughing when you described Sarah staying home and 'mending' the kids!
'Minding' would fit better if that's what you meant, but as a mother of three (now grown), accident prone kids, 'Mending' happened a lot in our family! I needed stock in Band-Aids and many trips to ER for stitches...ahh, /wipes tear from eye/ thanks for the laugh..

[I wonder how different my view on life is...I met hubby when we were 12 and was never was a single adult, being married and a mother at 21...now grandmother coming up on 33rd anniversary this year. I know, it sounds bazzar even to me..]


So, Josef's hedonism seems like a very long time single person trying to fill his life up...


(Since Cat posted her index, the stories have fallen much more into an order that makes sense...I'm definately up to speed with the most recent stuff.)
The Josef we see now is finally finding peace and a deep connection (w Shane and Shane/Sara A) that I think he's been trying to fill all along.
He obviously has the capacity for love and loving.
He's probably been trying on some level to find that for a long time...

I agree that Vamps must adjust to whatever current time they are passing through.
When we meet him in Season 1, revealing Sara W to Mick/Beth through the NY visit, and brief flashback, he seemed to be very taken with Sarah W, (and she him) and perhaps thought he might have actually found the love of his life...
Switching back to Cat's story, he and Shane were still at odds with each other...

Sarah had caught his attention, a woman ahead of her time and probably much more like her dad than her mom who accepted her (comfortable) lot in life. Had the Turning gone as planned, I think they could have been a very dynamic couple. She strong enough to balance/challenge and hold his interest, he able to give her the freedom to reach her potential.

Now, 50 years later I do not see that happening. Josef's 'relationship' with Sarah is now colored with 50 years of guilt. He has moved on and no longer is madly 'in love' with her. This is completely understandable.
She could adjust, after some time to the current culture, but being a product of her time, I don't ever see her ever becoming part of a foursome or sharing Josef with Shane.
Even I cannot suspend disbelief to that extent.

So, wake her up or pull the plug?
Pulling the plug and finally saying goodbye would be the most simple closure.

But Cat has the most interesting Muses...can't wait to see where this story goes...

Oh, and I've joined all the boards, as the moonlight family is now so spread out and I wish to stay in touch with all of you....the 'old' board is adjusting and doing well, no longer a 'ghost town'....
Each board has it's own flavor....with such a diverse goup, it seems natural that things would have spread out as they have...
If we were knee deep in Season 2, with season 3 and 4 in planning, and minus the 'recent unplesantness on the other board' we might have been able to stay more cohesive, but that is all water under the bridge now..so we move on and adjust...

Hugs to you all,

Mary

Re: Josef & Sarah (impartial discussion)

PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 7:12 pm
by francis
...but Francis, I burst out laughing when you described Sarah staying home and 'mending' the kids!
'Minding' would fit better if that's what you meant, but as a mother of three (now grown), accident prone kids, 'Mending' happened a lot in our family! I needed stock in Band-Aids and many trips to ER for stitches...ahh, /wipes tear from eye/ thanks for the laugh..


:oops: :oops: :oops: second language, you know. But now that you explained what I did wrong, I have to laugh too.
And my mom could tell stories of ER trips. We (five) seemed to hurt ourselves always on weekends when the local doc was closed.