When someone is turned into a Vampire

[Moonlightsonata]

Not sure if anyone is interested in discussing this but it is something I have been thinking about recently. Admittedly, it can be what anyone wants. My topic for discussion has to do with how much of what the person was remains when he/she becomes a vampire? In other words, why did Mick want the "cure" so much and why did so much humanity remain within him whereas the doctor who was turned in "Dr Feelgood" retain none of his human qualities? I am using those two as a comparison rather than Mick and Josef for instance since Josef has been a vampire for hundreds of years. Not really sure it is a good comparison since the doctor's unintentional sire left him without any explaination and maybe that is why all humanity ended. But the guy was a doctor after all and all he wanted was to kill people even his wife.

So the question again is: why do some vampires keep some of their human qualities? Just something I was thinking about. Plus I am trying to get to the 250 post mark today. I think I turn into something else with 250 posts.

Thanks in advance for any comments.

[wpgrace]

A cool question and juxtaposition today, MLS... as the UK girls are even as I type watching the Dr. Feelgood Episode...

My first reaction to your question? Mick is uniquely Mick. But I also feel like they didn't write the DF ep all that well... that Dr. was 2-ply cardboard... they coulda done that ep better.

I think it may also stem from what Mick wanted from life, from marriage. And the terrible shock of getting something totally different from what he THOUGHT he had promised and been promised.

I am one who thinks he might woulda gone along with being a vamp, had she been patient and given him the chance to choose. I mean, it IS seductive... but to have it foist upon you when you think you are on the cusp of the white picket fence and the 2.4 kids... that may have made a big difference for our Mick.

[Moonlightsonata]

wpgrace - Thanks for the response. Makes a lot of sense. I didn't realize the Dr. episode was the one on today in Britain. I agree it wasn't one of the better episodes.

Edited to add - I just made Fledgling. Thank you. I realize that to those with thousands of posts, this isn't much but it is an improvement.

[wpgrace]

NOT an improvement... you were perfectly fine before.... just another change.

Nonetheless... Welcome to Fledgling Sweetie! And they have a thread going from the UK girls, if you'd like to drop in on their ep viewing... it's kinda vicarious fun...

[librarian_7]

Well, it varies from one book/tv show to another, of course, but it seems that most of the more popular renditions of the vampire seem to have it that a person retains a good bit of their personality...evil people are evil, good people good.

I'd guess that there may have been something "off" about the doctor, but we really know nothing about him, other than that he was willing to stop and play good Samaritan to someone on the street.

As for Josef, I'd see him as a human as someone who was intelligent, possibly someone who was very all right with making the best of his situation, which over time has translated into a certain ruthlessness.

Lucky

[wpgrace]

Well, it varies from one book/tv show to another, of course, but it seems that most of the more popular renditions of the vampire seem to have it that a person retains a good bit of their personality...evil people are evil, good people good.

I'd guess that there may have been something "off" about the doctor, but we really know nothing about him, other than that he was willing to stop and play good Samaritan to someone on the street.

As for Josef, I'd see him as a human as someone who was intelligent, possibly someone who was very all right with making the best of his situation, which over time has translated into a certain ruthlessness.

Lucky

Do we assume Josef was an aristocrat of some sort? That usually translates into a certain ruthlessness... historically speaking...

[Luxe de Luxe]

interesting, grace. Josef certainly behaves as if 'to the manor born'. I suspect though, that he's been an ambitious young man/vamp who's aspired to that.

and as for the question - I'm with Lucky. I also think that Dr F being left at a totally vital time was a crucial explanation for his 'monsterliness'.

[allegrita]

I agree, Luxe. Mick said something to that effect--that newbie vamps are like feral kittens, and if they aren't socialized immediately by their sire (or somebody!) they are ruined forever. There appears to be a huge, overwhelming rush of hunger and rage and feelings of being out of control when a Moonlight vamp is first turned. Remember Mick and Guillermo discussing it in the morgue? The sire's job is not just to teach the newbie how to be a good vampire--it is to nurture them through that transition, help them cope with the new sensations and powerful physical urges, so that their basic personality (now enhanced with the extra stuff that makes them a vampire) can come back into play.

The doctor didn't get that nurturing, so necessary at the very beginning, so he became a rogue. His human personality was overwhelmed by the bloodlust and rage--he got stuck in the "feral kitten" stage. Or maybe "feral sabertooth tiger" is a better description.

Part of being a successful vampire is learning to function in human and vampire society. How not to lunge at the first delicious neck you see. How to mimic being human when necessary. How to avoid the sun and other dangerous things. And the way successful vampires do all these things is with their basic personality traits--their intelligence, their self-control, their ability to respond and adapt. (Also, I figure that successful vamps are the smartest among the people who get turned--probably a lot of new turns don't make it for very long, even with a sire's help--because they make a mistake and either die or get caught and eliminated by the Cleaners.)

[wpgrace]

I agree, Luxe. Mick said something to that effect--that newbie vamps are like feral kittens, and if they aren't socialized immediately by their sire (or somebody!) they are ruined forever. There appears to be a huge, overwhelming rush of hunger and rage and feelings of being out of control when a Moonlight vamp is first turned. Remember Mick and Guillermo discussing it in the morgue? The sire's job is not just to teach the newbie how to be a good vampire--it is to nurture them through that transition, help them cope with the new sensations and powerful physical urges, so that their basic personality (now enhanced with the extra stuff that makes them a vampire) can come back into play.

The doctor didn't get that nurturing, so necessary at the very beginning, so he became a rogue. His human personality was overwhelmed by the bloodlust and rage--he got stuck in the "feral kitten" stage. Or maybe "feral sabertooth tiger" is a better description.

Part of being a successful vampire is learning to function in human and vampire society. How not to lunge at the first delicious neck you see. How to mimic being human when necessary. How to avoid the sun and other dangerous things. And the way successful vampires do all these things is with their basic personality traits--their intelligence, their self-control, their ability to respond and adapt. (Also, I figure that successful vamps are the smartest among the people who get turned--probably a lot of new turns don't make it for very long, even with a sire's help--because they make a mistake and either die or get caught and eliminated by the Cleaners.)

Very Darwinian, Alle... I like it...

[librarian_7]

Well, we just don't know about Josef's background. I'd posited him as an aristocrat, of sorts...raised to war and yes, ruthlessness. Plus a good dose of entitlement.

Lilly, on the other hand, rather brilliantly portrayed him (Point of Origin) as an outsider, an outlaw, dependent on his wits and his physical skill to make his way in the world.

In either case, I think one of his most attractive traits is his incisive wit and intelligence. I've always said that Josef was wise, and it's not just from age. He's extremely smart. And he didn't get that from turning vamp.

As for Mick, I think he was a good, caring guy, who had not begun to reach his potential...as a vampire, he's been shaped by his experiences, tempered and matured by the pain of his existence. He is more than he was as a human, in many respects beyond the physical, but the seeds were always there.

Lucky

[eris]

Think of a newly turned vampire as an extremely High-def snap shot (that's how I look at them). Whatever was going on when they were turned is who and what they are for eternity.

With Mick, you've got a guy whose last mortal thought was of loss and betrayal. His assumptions of the life he had crashed headlong into a different reality. All of that betrayal and loss in the focal point of his death were what imprinted (possibly with a dash of wanting to "redeem" the woman he was in love with.) It also goes a long way to explaining the connection between Mick and Coraline. She turned him at a moment when his perception of her was ideal, and in a moment of passion - that would have been part of the same imprint.

With Dr. F, you've got a guy we know nothing about prior to his death. But his last moment was a man he tried to save who ended up killing him. His imprint was to muddle that life saving/life taking line, with a less than healthy dose of adrenaline as a pay off. Without a sire there to steer him away from the "rush", he kept pushing further, like a junkie on a deadly bender.

With Coraline, you've got a Courtesan whose whole life was created by purchasing her survival with her body - as a vampire, she epitomized that. It's highly possible that she was killed/turned during sex and became a sort of walking pheromone. Men would find it irresistible, women would likely have the opposite reaction. I think Lola was much the same.

Cynthia was turned a servant. She became an eternal one.

With Josef, I think you could make a case for his business drive stemming from either a born aristocracy, or from a turning that started him on a life of privilege where he had none before. At the moment of his turning, he was seeking a new life with more than what he had, and that's how he's spent his eternity - seeking more money, more power. It makes sense in light of his comments about loneliness - he sacrificed companionship for self-preservation, he may have even been betrayed himself and that betrayal imprinted on him as well.

Logan was probably turned in the basement where he lives, and his personality skewed toward agoraphobia since he was introverted or a loner to begin with.

Guillermo, who knows? But he could have been a medic or turned by one in a morgue so that's where he's comfortable.

The Cleaners have a distinct look to them that could suggest a common ancestry. There are regions of the world where women were the designated torturers and killers for matriarchal societies. That would follow them over into their new lives.

That's my view of it, anyway.

[MickLifeCrisis]

Very insightful, Allegrita and Eris. I had never really given it much thought before, so great question, Moonlightsonata!

("Feral saber-toothed tiger" - )

[greenleaf9]

Think of a newly turned vampire as an extremely High-def snap shot (that's how I look at them). Whatever was going on when they were turned is who and what they are for eternity.

With Mick, you've got a guy whose last mortal thought was of loss and betrayal. His assumptions of the life he had crashed headlong into a different reality. All of that betrayal and loss in the focal point of his death were what imprinted (possibly with a dash of wanting to "redeem" the woman he was in love with.) It also goes a long way to explaining the connection between Mick and Coraline. She turned him at a moment when his perception of her was ideal, and in a moment of passion - that would have been part of the same imprint.

With Dr. F, you've got a guy we know nothing about prior to his death. But his last moment was a man he tried to save who ended up killing him. His imprint was to muddle that life saving/life taking line, with a less than healthy dose of adrenaline as a pay off. Without a sire there to steer him away from the "rush", he kept pushing further, like a junkie on a deadly bender.

With Coraline, you've got a Courtesan whose whole life was created by purchasing her survival with her body - as a vampire, she epitomized that. It's highly possible that she was killed/turned during sex and became a sort of walking pheromone. Men would find it irresistible, women would likely have the opposite reaction. I think Lola was much the same.

Cynthia was turned a servant. She became an eternal one.

With Josef, I think you could make a case for his business drive stemming from either a born aristocracy, or from a turning that started him on a life of privilege where he had none before. At the moment of his turning, he was seeking a new life with more than what he had, and that's how he's spent his eternity - seeking more money, more power. It makes sense in light of his comments about loneliness - he sacrificed companionship for self-preservation, he may have even been betrayed himself and that betrayal imprinted on him as well.

Logan was probably turned in the basement where he lives, and his personality skewed toward agoraphobia since he was introverted or a loner to begin with.

Guillermo, who knows? But he could have been a medic or turned by one in a morgue so that's where he's comfortable.

The Cleaners have a distinct look to them that could suggest a common ancestry. There are regions of the world where women were the designated torturers and killers for matriarchal societies. That would follow them over into their new lives.

That's my view of it, anyway.

Really interesting thought Eris...personally I haven't given much thought to turning in ML...Another possibilty might be the amount of blood drained in a turning or amount of a sire's blood drunk? The Doctor in episode 3 only got a drop of blood...maybe if he had had more in him it would have made a difference? Either way, I think the abdonment was the key into him turning feral.

[Luxe de Luxe]

sometimes you're just scary-smart, eris.

[Catmoon]

I think Mick is in many ways a better person now than he was as a human. Now that his wild days are behind him, and he's dedicated himself to using his special skills to help those who need him. Obviously change and growth (or the opposite) are possible for ML vamps so I'd tend to believe the circumstances of turning and personality would be the influencing factors. There are good vamps and bad vamps, just like humans. Dr. Feelgood turned rogue, but Emma apparently did okay on her own, at least until she lost her marbles after about a hundred years.

Also, in my own ML fanon a big factor is what you believe about vampires at the time of your turning. If you think vampires are inherently evil, you're probably going to behave based on what you believe. I have an OC vamp who believes vampirism is a gift from the Gods. Needless to say that's going to make him behave differently than someone who thinks they're damned. ML vamp mythos is quite different from the traditional, so you need a sire there to tell you things like, "no, you don't have to always kill those you feed on, you can learn control." In my universe, one of the first things Josef's sire told him was, "You can be any kind of vampire you choose to be."

Great timing for this thread, since I'm in the middle of writing Josef's turning story right now and it could help inspire me!